Discussion:
UTF-8, not US ASCII, has been the standard for decades now.
(too old to reply)
J***@.
1970-01-01 00:00:00 UTC
Permalink
For years, ChrisV plonked me because his newsreader
couldn't handle my posts; for similar reasons,
people block posts from Google Groups.

His newsreader, Agent, doesn't understand UTF-8.

UTF-8, not US ASCII, has been the standard for decades now.

Also, Agent borks HTML, big time.

SLRN, a console newsreader, has no such problems.

Mozilla Thunderbird is the gold standard for newsreaders;
but 99.999 % of people can't configure it properly.

Most people can't write the CSS, nor the JavaScript,
required to make it super nice.

Unless you enjoy -Random- lags ( when will the post show up ? ),
Do NOT use a binary server to READ Usenet; instead, use:

News.Individual.NET:119 // 10 Euros per year.

Do NOT post using Individual.NET, they'll censor you;
instead, use a binary server; to wit:

News.US.Usenet-News.NET:119 or usNews.BlockNews.NET:119

They won't censor you; they don't even keep the "Path:" line,
so you can't be identified. Their archive is over 18 years deep.
$5 buys you 11 gigs, enough for several life times.
If one is down ( -very- unlikely ), use the other one.
J***@.
1970-01-01 00:00:00 UTC
Permalink
<PRE Style='Font-Family: OCR A, monospace !important;'>
This is an HTML post.

For years, ChrisV plonked me because his newsreader
couldn't handle my posts; for similar reasons,
people block posts from Google Groups.

His newsreader, Agent, doesn't understand UTF-8.

UTF-8, not US ASCII, has been the standard for decades now.

Also, Agent borks HTML, big time.

SLRN, a console newsreader, has no such problems.

Mozilla Thunderbird is the gold standard for newsreaders;
but 99.999 % of people can't configure it properly.

Most people can't write the CSS, nor the JavaScript,
required to make it super nice.

Unless you enjoy -Random- lags ( when will the post show up ? ),
Do NOT use a binary server to READ Usenet; instead, use:

News.Individual.NET:119 // 10 Euros per year.

Do NOT post using Individual.NET, they'll censor you;
instead, use a binary server; to wit:

News.US.Usenet-News.NET:119 or usNews.BlockNews.NET:119

They won't censor you; they don't even keep the "Path:" line,
so you can't be identified. Their archive is over 18 years deep.
$5 buys you 11 gigs, enough for several life times.
If one is down ( -very- unlikely ), use the other one.
Lewis
2020-04-15 00:29:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by J***@.
Mozilla Thunderbird is the gold standard for newsreaders;
Bwahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!

Thank you for that, it's the funniest thing I've seen all day.
Possibly all week.
--
On nights such as this, evil deeds are done. And good deeds, of
course. But mostly evil deeds. --Wyrd Sisters
mGhost
2020-04-15 02:45:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lewis
Post by J***@.
Mozilla Thunderbird is the gold standard for newsreaders;
Bwahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!
Thank you for that, it's the funniest thing I've seen all day.
Possibly all week.
Thought that was funny as well. SLRN is the gold standard. Thunderbird
is an email client, and not a very good one at that.
--
Я гость в отеле
Snit
2020-04-15 03:05:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by mGhost
Post by Lewis
Post by J***@.
Mozilla Thunderbird is the gold standard for newsreaders;
Bwahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!
Thank you for that, it's the funniest thing I've seen all day.
Possibly all week.
Thought that was funny as well. SLRN is the gold standard. Thunderbird
is an email client, and not a very good one at that.
I use it and can attest to the fact it is crap.
--
Personal attacks from those who troll show their own insecurity. They
cannot use reason to show the message to be wrong so they try to feel
somehow superior by attacking the messenger.

They cling to their attacks and ignore the message time and time again.
mGhost
2020-04-15 04:39:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Snit
Post by mGhost
Post by Lewis
Post by J***@.
Mozilla Thunderbird is the gold standard for newsreaders;
Bwahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!
Thank you for that, it's the funniest thing I've seen all day.
Possibly all week.
Thought that was funny as well. SLRN is the gold standard. Thunderbird
is an email client, and not a very good one at that.
I use it and can attest to the fact it is crap.
Couldn't agree more.
--
Я гость в отеле
Snit
2020-04-15 05:49:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by mGhost
Post by Snit
Post by mGhost
Post by Lewis
Post by J***@.
Mozilla Thunderbird is the gold standard for newsreaders;
Bwahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!
Thank you for that, it's the funniest thing I've seen all day.
Possibly all week.
Thought that was funny as well. SLRN is the gold standard. Thunderbird
is an email client, and not a very good one at that.
I use it and can attest to the fact it is crap.
Couldn't agree more.
Can you try? I would like to see what that looked like. :)

To be clear: I use it for Usenet. Not email.
--
Personal attacks from those who troll show their own insecurity. They
cannot use reason to show the message to be wrong so they try to feel
somehow superior by attacking the messenger.

They cling to their attacks and ignore the message time and time again.
J***@.
1970-01-01 00:00:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lewis
Post by J***@.
Mozilla Thunderbird is the gold standard for newsreaders;
but 99.999 % of people can't configure it properly.
Most people can't write the CSS, nor the JavaScript,
required to make it super nice.
Thank you for that, it's the funniest thing I've seen all day.
Thought that was funny as well. SLRN is the gold standard.
Thunderbird is an email client, and not a very good one at that.
If you had the power to configure it, like I do,
you wouldn't say that.

I wrote my own newsreader;
so I don't need Thunderbird.
mGhost
2020-04-15 18:29:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by J***@.
Post by Lewis
Post by J***@.
Mozilla Thunderbird is the gold standard for newsreaders;
but 99.999 % of people can't configure it properly.
Most people can't write the CSS, nor the JavaScript,
required to make it super nice.
Thank you for that, it's the funniest thing I've seen all day.
Thought that was funny as well. SLRN is the gold standard.
Thunderbird is an email client, and not a very good one at that.
If you had the power to configure it, like I do,
you wouldn't say that.
Does the filtering in Thunderbird depend on marking posts as read in
your configuration?
Post by J***@.
I wrote my own newsreader;
so I don't need Thunderbird.
Would you be so kind as to show a screen shot of your threaded viewer
and composition interface?
--
Я гость в отеле
J***@.
1970-01-01 00:00:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by mGhost
Post by J***@.
Post by J***@.
Mozilla Thunderbird is the gold standard for newsreaders;
but 99.999 % of people can't configure it properly.
Most people can't write the CSS, nor the JavaScript,
required to make it super nice.
Does the filtering in Thunderbird depend on marking posts
as read in your configuration ?
Google: Thunderbird filters

The email stuff works for posts as well,
as they are ultra similar.

FiltaQuilla uses regular expressions.

Write the proper JavaScript extension,
maybe toss in some CSS,
and you can make it do shit you've never dreamed of.

But this is far beyond "Joe SixPack", of course.
Post by mGhost
Post by J***@.
I wrote my own newsreader;
so I don't need Thunderbird.
Would you be so kind as to show a screen shot of your
threaded viewer and composition interface ?
My posts to Usenet ( since Feb 2012 ):
http://Jeff-Relf.Me/Posts.TXT

Open it in Visual Studio 2019 "Community" (free) Addition,
with (C#) "Visual Commander" macros/extensions,
and you're ready to read and/or compose new messages.

gShift Left Click "deletes" a post,
moving it to the clipboard,
ready for sending ( using a button on my newsreader ).
Loading Image...
http://Jeff-Relf.Me/X.HTM
http://Jeff-Relf.Me/Macros.HTM

But, surely, it wouldn't work for anyone but me;
no one else could learn the details,
including the complex C++ code.
unknown
2020-04-15 19:38:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by J***@.
But, surely, it wouldn't work for anyone but me;
Say there, Jeff, with a brain the size of yours, how
do you manage to get your head through the door?

[deliberate mistake in crossposted groups list left
as an exercise for the diligent student]
--
fold, spindle, mutilate
J***@.
1970-01-01 00:00:00 UTC
Permalink
with a brain the size of yours, how do you
manage to get your head through the door ?
Bill Gates is focused on the (ubiquitous) virus,
because that's the easiest thing to do;
I'm focused on the Hoovervilles,
the mentally ill drug abusers who need long-term care.

But don't be jealous of Bill or me,
we've both got one foot in the grave.
unknown
2020-04-15 20:38:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by J***@.
with a brain the size of yours, how do you
manage to get your head through the door ?
Bill Gates is focused on the (ubiquitous) virus,
because that's the easiest thing to do;
I'm focused on the Hoovervilles,
the mentally ill drug abusers who need long-term care.
But don't be jealous of Bill or me,
we've both got one foot in the grave.
True, that, as it is for us all. This is not about Bill Gates
though, it's about your ego and delusion of superiority.
Your attempt at deflection won't work.

[deliberate mistake in crossposted groups list is
still left as an exercise for the diligent student]
--
fold, spindle, mutilate
J***@.
1970-01-01 00:00:00 UTC
Permalink
"your" ego and delusion of superiority.
Who are you talking to, yourself ?

Keep repeating that;
hopefully, you'll change one day.
unknown
2020-04-15 21:04:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by J***@.
Post by unknown
your ego and delusion of superiority.
[post edit corrected]
Post by J***@.
Who are you talking to, yourself ?
Keep repeating that;
hopefully, you'll change one day.
Bye, Jeff.

[deliberate mistake in crossposted groups list is
still left as an exercise for the diligent student]
--
fold, spindle, mutilate
mGhost
2020-04-15 19:41:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by J***@.
Post by mGhost
Post by J***@.
Post by J***@.
Mozilla Thunderbird is the gold standard for newsreaders;
but 99.999 % of people can't configure it properly.
Most people can't write the CSS, nor the JavaScript,
required to make it super nice.
Does the filtering in Thunderbird depend on marking posts
as read in your configuration ?
Google: Thunderbird filters
The email stuff works for posts as well,
as they are ultra similar.
FiltaQuilla uses regular expressions.
Write the proper JavaScript extension,
maybe toss in some CSS,
and you can make it do shit you've never dreamed of.
But this is far beyond "Joe SixPack", of course.
Okay, my thoughts on Thunderbird vs SLRN are based on what the user gets
as defined by the application without any programming or experience
beyond being asked to configure it.
Post by J***@.
Post by mGhost
Post by J***@.
I wrote my own newsreader;
so I don't need Thunderbird.
Would you be so kind as to show a screen shot of your
threaded viewer and composition interface ?
http://Jeff-Relf.Me/Posts.TXT
Open it in Visual Studio 2019 "Community" (free) Addition,
with (C#) "Visual Commander" macros/extensions,
and you're ready to read and/or compose new messages.
gShift Left Click "deletes" a post,
moving it to the clipboard,
ready for sending ( using a button on my newsreader ).
http://Jeff-Relf.Me/MouseKeyboardLayout.PNG
http://Jeff-Relf.Me/X.HTM
http://Jeff-Relf.Me/Macros.HTM
But, surely, it wouldn't work for anyone but me;
no one else could learn the details,
including the complex C++ code.
Thank you.
--
Я гость в отеле
Felix Palmen
2020-04-15 06:24:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by J***@.
For years, ChrisV plonked me
and then, the typical behavior is posting a followup. Well, maybe.
Post by J***@.
UTF-8, not US ASCII, has been the standard for decades now.
Must be the only sane sentence in this entire post. Yes, newsreaders
that can't handle UTF-8 are badly broken. Still, a sane NUA will pick
US-ASCII for posting unless there are actually characters outside
US-ASCII.
Post by J***@.
Also, Agent borks HTML, big time.
Uhm. HTML in usenet? Probably makes for a good filter rule...
Post by J***@.
Mozilla Thunderbird is the gold standard for newsreaders;
ROFL

Yep, more nonsense following, let's drop that.
--
Dipl.-Inform. Felix Palmen <***@palmen-it.de> ,.//..........
{web} http://palmen-it.de {jabber} [see email] ,//palmen-it.de
{pgp public key} http://palmen-it.de/pub.txt // """""""""""
{pgp fingerprint} A891 3D55 5F2E 3A74 3965 B997 3EF2 8B0A BC02 DA2A
chrisv
2020-04-15 12:07:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by J***@.
For years, ChrisV plonked me because his newsreader
couldn't handle my posts;
You were plonked for being an html-posting kook.
Post by J***@.
His newsreader, Agent, doesn't understand UTF-8.
Claims a kook.
Post by J***@.
Also, Agent borks HTML, big time.
Even if true, no drawback at all.
Post by J***@.
Mozilla Thunderbird is the gold standard for newsreaders;
Not.
--
"And if you had a clue as to how the open source world worked you
would not whine that Apple was using open source software and then
modifying it as it shared it with the world." - some thing, lying
shamelessly (but no one can quote it lying)
Michael Moroney
2020-04-15 16:02:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by chrisv
Post by J***@.
For years, ChrisV plonked me because his newsreader
couldn't handle my posts;
You were plonked for being an html-posting kook.
Post by J***@.
His newsreader, Agent, doesn't understand UTF-8.
Claims a kook.
Post by J***@.
Also, Agent borks HTML, big time.
Even if true, no drawback at all.
I see that as an advantage, as Usenet posts in HTML can be used as a boobytrap
to do nefarious things, the minimum of which is to track who reads the post
similar to HTML email webbugs. An evil person could do much worse. Fetching
remote images also makes a Usenet post no longer self-contained, remove or
change the image and the post retroactively changes.

In the groups I follow (which changes over time) the only attempts I've seen
posting HTML to Usenet are spammers and Relf. Even spammers don't seem to
so that any more.
Post by chrisv
Post by J***@.
Mozilla Thunderbird is the gold standard for newsreaders;
Not.
Jeff sure has rather kO0ky ideas for "gold standards" for newsreaders.
chrisv
2020-04-15 16:27:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by chrisv
Post by J***@.
Agent borks HTML, big time.
Even if true, no drawback at all.
I see that as an advantage, (snip)
Yep.
Post by chrisv
Post by J***@.
Mozilla Thunderbird is the gold standard for newsreaders;
Not.
Jeff sure has rather kO0ky ideas for "gold standards" for newsreaders.
A kO0k's ideas are, by definition, kO0ky. 8)
--
'Even if you share ideas you have in common with Linus Torvalds, such
ideas are "proof" you are a Linux-hater... so says the herd.' - some
thing, lying shamelessly (but no one can quote it lying)
J***@.
1970-01-01 00:00:00 UTC
Permalink
Michael Moroney's paranoid, pot-addled brain is incapable
of understanding that Thunderbird's default settings prevent
the "tracking" problems that scared him so.

MrChrisV is too childish to admit that his newsreader
can't handle Unicode ( which requires font mixing-n-matching ).

Likewise, SLRN can't mixing-n-match fonts,
as Unicode requires ( especially when it comes to emoji's ).
chrisv
2020-04-15 17:38:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by J***@.
MrChrisV is too childish to admit that his newsreader
can't handle Unicode
Why would I admit something that isn't true?

This is my normal configuration:

https://imgur.com/bvbQtl1

I could choose to configure it like this:

https://imgur.com/NKaohlX

Or this:

https://imgur.com/28rAjCn
Post by J***@.
(which requires font mixing-n-matching ).
None for me, thanks.
--
"I can only imagine what a nightmare it would be to go to high school
with a bunch of dumb, loudmouth blacks eeking and ooking all day
long." - "DFS"
J***@.
1970-01-01 00:00:00 UTC
Permalink
Why do you object to font mixing-n-matching, MrChrisV ?

Each post tells you what CharSet to use;
the appropriate CharSet ( UTF-8, Western or Japanese )
is -not- a newsreader setting.

Forte agent got it wrong;
and you're too petty to admit it.
chrisv
2020-04-15 18:27:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by J***@.
Each post tells you what CharSet to use;
the appropriate CharSet ( UTF-8, Western or Japanese )
is -not- a newsreader setting.
That would make sense.
Post by J***@.
Forte agent got it wrong;
Maybe so.

But what's the point of posting E2 80 99 (UTF) when 27 (ASCII) does
the job?
Post by J***@.
and you're too petty to admit it.
Wrong. 8)
--
"Say It Loud, I'm Black And I'm Proud! (but could I have yo' spare
change anyway?)" - "DFS"
J***@.
1970-01-01 00:00:00 UTC
Permalink
what's the point of posting E2 80 99 ( UTF-8 )
when 0x27 (hex) does the job ?
Some people prefer separate opening and closing quote marks.
Your inability to handle it doesn't make them bad people.
chrisv
2020-04-15 19:17:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by J***@.
what's the point of posting E2 80 99 ( UTF-8 )
when 0x27 (hex) does the job ?
Some people prefer separate opening and closing quote marks.
So, you mistakenly typed a quote mark, when you should have typed an
apostrophe.
Post by J***@.
Your inability to handle it doesn't make them bad people.
No, it makes them kO0ky. 8)
--
"The public hates Linux." - Flathead
J***@.
1970-01-01 00:00:00 UTC
Permalink
mistakenly typed a [ typographic apostrophe ],
when I should have typed [ a straight apostrophe ].
"it’s" is more correct then "it's".

The straight apostrophe, ' (U+0027 APOSTROPHE) is ambiguous,
as it could also be an open quotation mark, or a prime symbol;
it only exists to save space on the keyboard.

’, U+2019, is a "typographic apostrophe"; see:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostrophe#Typographic_form
Post by J***@.
Your inability to handle it doesn't make them bad people.
No, it makes them kO0ky. 8)
You're the only one who's marching in step.
Felix Palmen
2020-04-16 06:32:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by J***@.
mistakenly typed a [ typographic apostrophe ],
when I should have typed [ a straight apostrophe ].
"it’s" is more correct then "it's".
And “it’s” is “more correct” than(!) "it’s".

Your personal fight is utterly pointless, there are just two facts:

* UTF-8 is the de facto standard almost everywhere on the internet, so
even on usenet, a reader that can't work with it is broken. A really
good reader will replace Unicode characters with 7bit ASCII
"lookalikes" when displaying the message on a terminal that can't
display Unicode, a mediocre reader will use some fixed replacement
character everywhere, and a broken reader will misinterpret the byte
sequence as multiple characters of some 8bit encoding.

* The robustness principle still applies, and applying it to encodings
in usenet tells you: don't use anything outside 7bit ASCII unless it's
really needed. Even a classic PC VGA console won't be able to display
most Unicode characters.

Given these, have fun running endlessly in circles .. or just drop it.
--
Dipl.-Inform. Felix Palmen <***@palmen-it.de> ,.//..........
{web} http://palmen-it.de {jabber} [see email] ,//palmen-it.de
{pgp public key} http://palmen-it.de/pub.txt // """""""""""
{pgp fingerprint} A891 3D55 5F2E 3A74 3965 B997 3EF2 8B0A BC02 DA2A
chrisv
2020-04-16 12:16:42 UTC
Permalink
"it’s" is more correct then "it's".
And “it’s†is “more correct†than(!) "it’s".
Heh.
* UTF-8 is the de facto standard almost everywhere on the internet, so
even on usenet, a reader that can't work with it is broken. A really
good reader will replace Unicode characters with 7bit ASCII
"lookalikes" when displaying the message on a terminal that can't
display Unicode, a mediocre reader will use some fixed replacement
character everywhere, and a broken reader will misinterpret the byte
sequence as multiple characters of some 8bit encoding.
Yes, and I have conceeded Jeff's point, there.

One weird thing with Agent (at least, in my configuration) is that if
I simply click reply, it fixes the problem, and "it’s" is used in my
reply. For my reply to show exactly what was displayed to me, I need
to highlight the text, before clicking reply.
* The robustness principle still applies, and applying it to encodings
in usenet tells you: don't use anything outside 7bit ASCII unless it's
really needed.
Right again.
Given these, have fun running endlessly in circles .. or just drop it.
We are having fun, but I think that this debate has run it’s course.

8)
--
'Linux "advocates" don't like seeing anyone make money.' - Flathead,
lying shamelessly
anonlinuxuser
2020-04-16 19:08:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by chrisv
"it’s" is more correct then "it's".
And “it’s†is “more correct†than(!) "it’s".
Heh.
* UTF-8 is the de facto standard almost everywhere on the internet, so
even on usenet, a reader that can't work with it is broken. A really
good reader will replace Unicode characters with 7bit ASCII
"lookalikes" when displaying the message on a terminal that can't
display Unicode, a mediocre reader will use some fixed replacement
character everywhere, and a broken reader will misinterpret the byte
sequence as multiple characters of some 8bit encoding.
Yes, and I have conceeded Jeff's point, there.
One weird thing with Agent (at least, in my configuration) is that if
I simply click reply, it fixes the problem, and "it’s" is used in my
reply. For my reply to show exactly what was displayed to me, I need
to highlight the text, before clicking reply.
* The robustness principle still applies, and applying it to encodings
in usenet tells you: don't use anything outside 7bit ASCII unless it's
really needed.
Right again.
Given these, have fun running endlessly in circles .. or just drop it.
We are having fun, but I think that this debate has run it’s course.
8)
Actually, all of your posts came in very readable.
chrisv
2020-04-16 12:22:00 UTC
Permalink
mistakenly typed a [ typographic apostrophe ],
when I should have typed [ a straight apostrophe ].
"it’s" is more correct then "it's".
And “it’s” is “more correct” than(!) "it’s".
Here, I simply clicked reply.
--
"It has been shown time and time again that consumers dont want/need
Linux." - "True Linux advocate" Hadron Quark
Michael Bäuerle
2020-04-17 09:56:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by chrisv
mistakenly typed a [ typographic apostrophe ],
when I should have typed [ a straight apostrophe ].
"it�s" is more correct then "it's".
And �it�s� is �more correct� than(!) "it�s".
Here, I simply clicked reply.
The result is broken because Forté Agent has mapped the non-ASCII
characters to a Windows-12xx codepage, but used the MIME-Label:
|
| Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

Neither IS0 8859-1 nor the C1 control characters contain printable
characters in the codepoint range 80h...9Fh (as used in the quoted
text).

Matching labels for Windows codepages are registered at IANA:
<https://www.iana.org/assignments/character-sets/character-sets.xhtml>
Maybe Forté Agent can be configured to declare what is really used.


[Xpost reduced]

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