Discussion:
[dialog] Can I set dialog to edit in Notepad++
(too old to reply)
bill
2021-08-11 03:03:41 UTC
Permalink
I really like Dialog ever since Bernd turned me on to it.
But I also like Notepad++ just as much.

Can I set 40tude dialog to edit new articles in Notepad++?
I don't need 40tude dialog to do anything else in Notepad++.

I don't see the option in Settings >> General Settings >> Misc.

Google says "It looks like there aren't many great matches."
<https://www.google.com/search?q=40tude+dialog+scripts+notepad%2B%2B>

Regards,
bill
--
Why can't pencils move?
Because they are stationery
Bernd Rose
2021-08-11 04:05:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by bill
Can I set 40tude dialog to edit new articles in Notepad++?
I don't need 40tude dialog to do anything else in Notepad++.
Not really. It is possible per script to save messages from Dialog
to disk. And it should also be possible for this script to open the
saved message in Notepad++ per shell execution command issued from
Dialog. Moreover, it would also be possible to reload the content
of the saved file to Dialog per script. But the whole process would
be somewhat difficult to implement and probably not seem seamless
enough for a good usage experience.

I suggest to use normal Windows functionality for this task, if you
really want to go this way: Assign a hotkey to Notepad++ and use
SelectAll, Cut or Copy, Paste keyboard commands to move the text
between both programs.

Please note, that if you do not re-edit the text afterwards in the
Dialog compose window, you loose the ability for Dialog specific
functions like inserting WrapOverride and spoiler characters. IIRC,
both do not survive copy/paste *back* into Dialog, because Dialog
regards these characters not as part of the text itself and strips
(or special encodes? I do not really remember, ATM) them on insert.
In any case: They loose their function on insert.

HTH.
Bernd
bill
2021-08-11 15:00:23 UTC
Permalink
Bernd Rose
2021-08-15 12:23:41 UTC
Permalink
Am Wed, 11th Aug 2021 17:00:23 +0200, bill wrote:

[Use external editor (Notepad++) for editing follow-ups]
It is possible per script [...]. But the whole process would
be somewhat difficult to implement and probably not seem seamless
enough for a good usage experience.
I'm not a script writer so unless the script exists (or a similar modifiable
script exists)
All approaches we discussed until now, are either not to your liking
or, IMHO, rather dangerous. - But you got me curious... ;-)

Although the script capabilities of 40tude Dialog are extraordinary, they
still have their limitations. Often it is possible to circumvent problems
by calling system function. In your case, this would rather complicate
things, though.

Of all Event scripts, only OnBeforeSendingMessage deals to some degree with
the composition window. Actually, it rather deals with a text message, right
after the Composition window is disposed off, but before this message is
sent. This makes it possible, to add some checks and changes right before
sending. But everything altered will be either sent without 40tude Dialog
doing additional checks; or it will be discarded and +/- lost.

The same is true for Message scripts. All objects and their messages, which
are accessible this way, target (only!) the main Dialog window. The Compose
window is out of the scope of Messages scripts.

Even Custom scripts can only be assigned hotkeys of the main Dialog window,
and /not/ be executed from Composition window.

So, everything dealing with calling an external editor has to be initiated
from the main 40tude Dialog Window. This also means, it is not possible
(without diving in the innermost system functions for process and window
enumeration and the like) to open the follow-up inside the Composition
window, save the text from there, edit it externally and come back to that
Composition window for reloading the altered text and final processing.

The way I chose is:
1) Load currently selected message (cf. Article pane) to memory buffer
2) Add quote chars in front of each line of the buffer. (Usually, this
step would be done by 40tude Dialog while loading the text into the
Composition window. But, unfortunately, we are about to circumvent
this step right now.)
3) Save the buffer to disk
4) Open Notepad++ (or another editor) with the saved temporary file
5) Block 40tude Dialog with a message box
6) Wait for the message box to be closed after the file has been edited,
externally, and saved back to disk.
7) Fire up the 40tude Composition window (as follow-up to the still current
message)
8) Reload the file from disk into the Composition window, replacing the
whole text, save the first two lines (intro plus one empty line) by
stuffing the keyboard buffer. (= The only way without Windows system
functions to access the Composition window per script.)

Now the text is ready for final editing (inserting wrap override characters,
adding a suitable signature, and the like). Afterwards, the message can be
sent (or aborted), normally.

The script itself can be created as Custom script (to be assigned to a
keyboard shortcut) or as a Message script. Only few alterations have to be
done, to go from one to the other. Both methods performed well during my
tests. It should be clear, though, that the script performs only the most
basic error checks. Therefore, it may fail at any time. (More refined
error testing would preoccupy far more hours, then I care to spend on this
matter.) - You have been warned! ;-)

And now for the script: Following is the Message script variant. I chose
to assign it to a mouse middle button double click inside the Article pane.
This way, it is clear, that it targets the current article.

To load it, choose the "Message scripts" tab from 40tude Dialog Scripting
Editor, create a new script and select:

Control: BODYEDIT
Message: WM_MBUTTONDBLCLK

Then replace the script stub with the following code. Adjust the entries
in the "const" section at the top of the script to your preferences and
system settings. Then save and compile the script, and you are ready to go.

Have fun!
Bernd

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

// Script for opening the current message in an external editor
// and getting the edited text back as Follow-Up into the 40tude
// Composition Window
//
// Adjust settings in the 'const' section on top of the script
//
// Author: Bernd Rose | Version: 2021-08-15 | Public Domain

program BODYEDIT_WM_MBUTTONDBLCLK;
uses Forms, StdCtrls, Textfile;

const
// Edit settings here:
ExtEditor = 'C:\Program Files\Notepad++\Notepad++.exe';
TmpFile = 'C:\Temp\dialog.txt';
bSkipIntro = True;
QuoteChrs = '>|';
QuoteChr = '>';
// End of editable section

procedure OnWMessage(var Msg:TMessage;var handled:boolean);

var
TmpForm: TForm;
TmpMemo: TMemo;
TextF: Textfile;
i: Integer;

begin
TmpForm := TForm.Create(Nil);
TmpMemo := TMemo.Create(TmpForm);
TmpMemo.parent := TmpForm;
TmpMemo.WordWrap := True;
TmpMemo.Scrollbars := ssBoth;

lockdisplay;

try
TmpMemo.Clear;
ADo('ArticlePane');
ADo('SelectAll');
Ado('Copy');
TmpMemo.PasteFromClipboard;

// Insert quotation char in the first position of every line
begin
i := 0;
while i <= TmpMemo.Lines.count - 1 do
begin
// Check for empty lines (need special treatment)
if TmpMemo.Lines[i] <> '' then
if Pos(TmpMemo.Lines[i][1], QuoteChrs) > 0 then
begin
// Quote an already quoted line
TmpMemo.Lines[i] := QuoteChr + TmpMemo.Lines[i];
end
else
begin
// New quotes are padded with a space character
TmpMemo.Lines[i] := QuoteChr + ' ' + TmpMemo.Lines[i];
end
else
// Append empty line, as well, to get correct line endings
TmpMemo.Lines[i] := QuoteChr + TmpMemo.Lines[i];
i := i + 1;
end;
end;

AssignFile(TextF, TmpFile);
Rewrite(TextF);
TextWrite(TextF, TmpMemo.text);
CloseFile(TextF);

//PostKey( key: Word; Shift, Alt, Ctrl, Left, Right, Middle, Double,specialkey: Boolean);
PostKey(36, false, false, true, false, false, false, false, false);

unlockdisplay;

FileExecute(0,ExtEditor,'open',TmpFile,'',1,0);

// Access to 40tude Dialog is suspended until return from external editor
if Application.MessageBox('Hit <OK> when the external edit process is finished.',
'Waiting...', 65) = 1 then
begin
TmpMemo.Clear;
TmpMemo.Lines.LoadFromFile(TmpFile);
TmpMemo.SelectAll;
TmpMemo.CopyToClipboard;

ADoLater('FollowUpToUsenetMessage');

if bSkipIntro then
begin
// Go to top, then 2 lines down and select message text to the end
PostKey(36, false, false, true, false, false, false, false, false);
PostKey(40, false, false, false, false, false, false, false, false);
PostKey(40, false, false, false, false, false, false, false, false);
PostKey(35, true, false, true, false, false, false, false, true);
end
else
begin
// Select all
PostKey(65, false, false, true, false, false, false, false, false);
end;

// Paste Clipboard content (overwriting selection); then go to top
PostKey(86, false, false, true, false, false, false, false, false);
PostKey(36, false, false, true, false, false, false, false, false);
end;

finally
TmpForm.free;
end;

end;

begin
end.

VanguardLH
2021-08-11 06:35:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by bill
I really like Dialog ever since Bernd turned me on to it.
But I also like Notepad++ just as much.
Can I set 40tude dialog to edit new articles in Notepad++?
I don't need 40tude dialog to do anything else in Notepad++.
I don't see the option in Settings >> General Settings >> Misc.
Google says "It looks like there aren't many great matches."
<https://www.google.com/search?q=40tude+dialog+scripts+notepad%2B%2B>
Open Notepad++, and compose your messaged. Copy-n-paste into a
new-message window in Dialog. That's all I can recommend. Dialog was
abandoned 16 years ago, if not a bit earlier.
bill
2021-08-11 15:14:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by VanguardLH
Open Notepad++, and compose your messaged. Copy-n-paste into a
new-message window in Dialog. That's all I can recommend. Dialog was
abandoned 16 years ago, if not a bit earlier.
That's what I was worried about & it's what I've been doing every since you
and Bernd turned me on to this otherwise wonderful 40Tude Dialog newsreader.

To open notepad while I'm in Dialog I can type [WindowsKey][r][n][EnterKey]
That brings up Notepad++ from within anywhere while I'm in 40Tude Dialog.

To be more clear, I could have typed [WindowsKey][r][notepad++][EnterKey]
from within Dialog but that would be too many clicks to do the same task.

So in my registry I have "n" defined to bring up Notepad++ using App Paths:
HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SOFTWARE\Microsoft\Windows\CurrentVersion\App Paths\
n.exe === C:\program files\notepad++\notepad++.exe

Just in case you're worried, this little trick requires that an "n.exe" not
exist (not in the path anyway) and, in fact, "n.exe" in my case doesn't
exist anywhere. It is just the syntax needed to create an app path key.

If I combine Bernd's suggestion of having Dialog save to a specific file,
that's just as easy to modify the "n" key to edit that specific dialog file.
HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SOFTWARE\Microsoft\Windows\CurrentVersion\App Paths\
n.exe === C:\My Documents\bill\40tude\dialog_composition_file.txt

In that case, if I type [WindowsKey][r][n][EnterKey], it will bring up that
dialog-saved file.txt in the default editor (which could be Notepad++).

I was hoping Dialog's "Save & Close Draft" would save the composition to a
given location but I can't find the saved draft in a text-editable format.

Regards,
bill
--
Have you read the article about broken pencils?
I hope not, the reviewers said it's pointless and lead on for too long.
Kerr-Mudd, John
2021-08-11 15:36:05 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 11 Aug 2021 17:14:32 +0200
Post by bill
Post by VanguardLH
Open Notepad++, and compose your messaged. Copy-n-paste into a
new-message window in Dialog. That's all I can recommend. Dialog was
abandoned 16 years ago, if not a bit earlier.
That's what I was worried about & it's what I've been doing every since you
and Bernd turned me on to this otherwise wonderful 40Tude Dialog newsreader.
To open notepad while I'm in Dialog I can type [WindowsKey][r][n][EnterKey]
That brings up Notepad++ from within anywhere while I'm in 40Tude Dialog.
Windows (well my XP flavour!) allows you to assign a shortcut key to a desktop icon - I just assigned N to Notepad [I've already cheated and overwrote the old notepad.exe with Notepad2]

This allows Ctrl-Alt-N to open Notepad2. {You don't get any option but to have the "Ctrl-Alt-" part}

[]
Post by bill
If I combine Bernd's suggestion of having Dialog save to a specific file,
that's just as easy to modify the "n" key to edit that specific dialog file.
HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SOFTWARE\Microsoft\Windows\CurrentVersion\App Paths\
n.exe === C:\My Documents\bill\40tude\dialog_composition_file.txt
In that case, if I type [WindowsKey][r][n][EnterKey], it will bring up that
dialog-saved file.txt in the default editor (which could be Notepad++).
I was hoping Dialog's "Save & Close Draft" would save the composition to a
given location but I can't find the saved draft in a text-editable format.
--
Bah, and indeed Humbug.
bill
2021-08-11 17:48:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kerr-Mudd, John
Windows (well my XP flavour!) allows you to assign a shortcut key
to a desktop icon - I just assigned N to Notepad
[I've already cheated and overwrote the old notepad.exe with Notepad2]
Hi there ker-muhj-uhn,

Windows 10 isn't much different than XP except in the pretty background.
In Dialog I tried [control][alt][n] which did nothing (it's a good start).
Post by Kerr-Mudd, John
This allows Ctrl-Alt-N to open Notepad2.
I went to my taskbar menu shortcut for notepad++.lnk to set properties.
It wouldn't let me type anything but a single character such as [n].
It asked for Administrator Permission which I said "OK" to.
But then when I typed [control][alt][n] nothing happened.

Googling I found maybe it must be in the start menu apparently?
https://www.google.com/search?q=how+to+set+shortcut+key+in+windows+10

I'm not sure why it doesn't work with ANY shortcut, but maybe it has to be a
shortcut that is in the path?

Anyway, that worked by setting the start menu Notepad++ shortcut.

I always use the WinXP style menus (which is simply a menu folder pinned to
the taskbar) so I would never use the Win10 start menu and I often clear it
out so I'm lucky it was still there.
Post by Kerr-Mudd, John
{You don't get any option but to have the "Ctrl-Alt-" part}
I just tried it in this composition Window and it worked nicely.
That saves a few keystrokes.

Here's kind of what I do (although circumstances dictate the steps).
0. In Dialog on interesting threads I press [shift][w]
This runs a keep-and-highlight script previously supplied by Bernd.
1. I then read an article that I wish to reply to by pressing [f]
2. In the 40tude dialog composition window I press [control][a]
3. Then [control][x]
4. Now (thanks to you) I press [control][alt][n]
5. Then [control][v]
6. Then I can edit to my heart's content and when I'm ready to return
7. In Notepad++ I press [control][a][control][x][alt][f4] (which kills it)
8. Back in Dialog I press [control][v]
9. In Dialog I press "a_a_a" (without the underscore)
This runs a dictionary replace from Bernd which does my salutation.
10. The only mouse action is to send this article to the nntp server.

Regards,
bill
--
Choosing pencils is impossible for me, I'm always confused with the amount
of blackness I need. 2B or not 2B, that is the question.
Bernd Rose
2021-08-11 20:10:20 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 11 Aug 2021 19:48:07 +0200, bill wrote:

[Assign keyboard shortcut to open Notepad++]
Post by bill
I went to my taskbar menu shortcut for notepad++.lnk to set properties.
It wouldn't let me type anything but a single character such as [n].
Each of <n>, <ctrl><n> and <ctrl><alt><n> should all result in the keyboard
shortcut <ctrl><alt><n> and should be shown in the shortcut entry field of
the properties Dialog as <CTRL + ALT + N>.
Post by bill
It asked for Administrator Permission which I said "OK" to.
It should only do this, if you created the taskbar shortcut with Admin
rights. When created with your normal user rights, the Properties Dialog
should accept the shortcut without requesting Admin permissions.
Post by bill
But then when I typed [control][alt][n] nothing happened.
Maybe, because you created the shortcut with Admin rights, but executed
it with user rights?

Keyboard shortcuts should be accepted by Windows from taskbar, desktop
and start menu shortcut icons.

Bernd
VanguardLH
2021-08-11 21:32:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by bill
I went to my taskbar menu shortcut for notepad++.lnk to set properties.
It wouldn't let me type anything but a single character such as [n].
It asked for Administrator Permission which I said "OK" to.
But then when I typed [control][alt][n] nothing happened.
Shortcut hotkeys seem to have a limited scope. Most times and in many
places where I have shortcuts, they don't work for me. Only if the
shortcut (.lnk file) is on the desktop (%userprofile%\desktop) or in the
Start folder ("%appdata%\Microsoft\Windows\Start Menu" on Win10, don't
remember for WinXP) does the shortcut's hotkey work. Might also work in
a subfolder under the desktop folder.

Microsoft as repurposed many KB article numbers, so URLs to some old web
pages, especially for unsupported versions of Microsoft, like Windows
XP, are no longer available. By my recollection of a then-existing KB
article said shortcut keys only work when the shortcuts are on the
desktop or under the Start menu hierarchy.

Do you have a shortcut in the Start menu somewhere? Or on your desktop?
I noticed that using a hotkey for a shortcut will load the program, but
there is a lag before the program loads. I would also make sure the
shortcut with hotkey (on desktop or in Start menu) points to an
executable file, not to a data file which operates by filetype
association.

For me, shortcut hotkeys have little value since I tend to keep my
desktop folder trimmed. I like order and neatness. The insides of my
computer are likewise. So is my home, car, and work and lab desks. I
got ribbed at work that no one can tell if I have been at my desks.
bill
2021-08-12 03:08:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by VanguardLH
Shortcut hotkeys seem to have a limited scope.
Yeah. Windows must have rules for where it looks for keyboard shortcuts.

All I know is when I assigned "control+alt+n" to the Notepad++.lnk shortcut
in my taskbar toolbar it didn't work but when I did the exact same thing to
the Notepad++.lnk shortcut in my StartMenu, typing "control+alt+n" worked.
Post by VanguardLH
Most times and in many
places where I have shortcuts, they don't work for me.
The shortcuts work no matter where they are but I think you mean the
keyboard shortcuts (which is a property of the shortcut) don't always work
unless the shortcut itself is in the "right" place - which is apparently
defined by Microsoft as the desktop or the StartMenu (and maybe elsewhere).

Since I don't have any shortcuts on my desktop, by design, it's going to
have to be in the alphabetic StartMenu (which I normally keep empty).
Post by VanguardLH
Only if the
shortcut (.lnk file) is on the desktop (%userprofile%\desktop) or in the
Start folder ("%appdata%\Microsoft\Windows\Start Menu" on Win10, don't
remember for WinXP) does the shortcut's hotkey work. Might also work in
a subfolder under the desktop folder.
I asked on the Windows newsgroup but nobody has answered yet where shortcuts
must be in order for keyboard shortcuts to work.

This implies it works for StartMenu shortcuts and for pinneditems.
https://www.winhelponline.com/blog/assign-hotkey-windows-10-start-menu-shortcuts/

This doesn't even say that it won't work in the cases I've found.
https://www.popsci.com/story/diy/custom-keyboard-shortcuts-windows/
Post by VanguardLH
Microsoft as repurposed many KB article numbers, so URLs to some old web
pages, especially for unsupported versions of Microsoft, like Windows
XP, are no longer available. By my recollection of a then-existing KB
article said shortcut keys only work when the shortcuts are on the
desktop or under the Start menu hierarchy.
This implies there are THREE locations (desktop, startmenu, taskbar)
https://www.tenforums.com/tutorials/93130-how-assign-keyboard-shortcut-shortcuts-windows-10-a.html

Notice mine isn't in the taskbar per se. It's in a toolbar in the taskbar.

Personally I don't like having ANYTHING in my start menu (either the
alphabetic or the tiled start menu) but if I have to, I'll leave the
Notepad++.lnk there for now.
Post by VanguardLH
Do you have a shortcut in the Start menu somewhere? Or on your desktop?
I noticed that using a hotkey for a shortcut will load the program, but
there is a lag before the program loads. I would also make sure the
shortcut with hotkey (on desktop or in Start menu) points to an
executable file, not to a data file which operates by filetype
association.
I don't put anything on the desktop but "mypc" and "recyclebin".
If something goes on the desktop, I move it to where it belongs.

Normally that happens during an installation where I move the shortcuts to
where they belong on my winxp style cascade toolbar attached to my taskbar.
Post by VanguardLH
For me, shortcut hotkeys have little value since I tend to keep my
desktop folder trimmed. I like order and neatness. The insides of my
computer are likewise. So is my home, car, and work and lab desks. I
got ribbed at work that no one can tell if I have been at my desks.
Like you I'm one of the most well organized people you've ever met, at least
for a computer. I'm so well organized my menus can be copied over from
Windows XP and they'll still work on Windows 10, ten years later, since I
have a place for everything and everything in its place.

Given there is limited real estate in the taskbar, I only put shortcuts in
the taskbar that I use a lot and that don't open by themselves.

An example of something that doesn't need to be in the taskbar is Notepad++
because I simply doubleclick on a txt file to open that file in Notepad++.

Another example of what doesn't need to be in the taskbar is Irfanview
because Irfanview will open up when I doubleclick on a JPG file.

What does need a shortcut are things like browsers (although if I wanted to,
I could create HTM files that open up in browsers but I use a variety of
browsers so any one default would need a host of default html, htm, etc file
types which would be a kluge.

The solution I have now is pretty good, which I will outline as a solution.

Regards,
bill
--
Looking for a pencil, I asked in the local shop if they keep stationery.
Chap said "I move around a bit".
Bernd Rose
2021-08-12 04:10:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by bill
Yeah. Windows must have rules for where it looks for keyboard shortcuts.
[...]
Post by bill
I asked on the Windows newsgroup but nobody has answered yet where shortcuts
must be in order for keyboard shortcuts to work.
This implies there are THREE locations (desktop, startmenu, taskbar)
https://www.tenforums.com/tutorials/93130-how-assign-keyboard-shortcut-shortcuts-windows-10-a.html
Which I already wrote you yesterday:

Message-ID: <***@b.rose.tmpbox.news.arcor.de>

You ask so many question in so many different places, that you loose track
of the answers.
Post by bill
Notice mine isn't in the taskbar per se. It's in a toolbar in the taskbar.
I can't reproduce your problem. But you can pin Notepad++ directly to the
taskbar while running. Afterwards, you can assign a hotkey inside the icon
shortcut properties. At least if it is done with your current user rights,
the hotkey should work with your user rights, immediately.

Bernd
bill
2021-08-12 15:37:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bernd Rose
You ask so many question in so many different places, that you loose track
of the answers.
I appreciate your help. I'm a very detailed person.
I respond to everyone, with those details. :)
But I don't really have any questions left so I'm just responding to issues.
Post by Bernd Rose
Post by bill
Notice mine isn't in the taskbar per se. It's in a toolbar in the taskbar.
I can't reproduce your problem.
I think VanguardLH already reproduced what I saw, plus when I looked it up.

It "appears" the Notepad++.lnk shortcut must be in a certain "path" for the
[control][alt][n] keyboard shortcut assigned to it to work.

So there is no mystery other than the definitive list of where the
Notepad++.lnk shortcut should be in order for the keyboard shortcut assigned
to it to work.

The three places that we know of are not places I store _anything_ (but I do
easily concede that most people are nowhere nearly as organized as I am on a
computer so for most people those three places would work just fine.
Post by Bernd Rose
But you can pin Notepad++ directly to the taskbar while running.
Of course. But I already stated that I'm extremely well organized.
Everything has a place. Editors do not belong in the taskbar in my model.
Editors don't even belong in my WinXP style pullout accordion cascade menu
attached to the taskbar (although they are there, just for completeness).

The reason is that you almost never execute an editor in and of itself.
You almost always doubleclick on a file which then brings up the editor.

Besides, _all_ the programs I use, including the editors, have an AppPaths
key dedicated to bringing them up if and when I (rarely) want to.

So, for example, to bring up "vim", I just type [windows][r][v][enter].
To bring up Notepad++, I type [windows][r][n][enter].
To bring up MS Word, I type [windows][r][w][enter].
etcetera

For decades for organizational reasons, my choice has been to not put file
editor shortcuts in the taskbar.

There's no reason to break that rule now since leaving Notepad in the
StartMenu (which normally is empty for me) works just fine (as I almost
never see the StartMenu unless I accidentally hit its hotkey combination).
Post by Bernd Rose
Afterwards, you can assign a hotkey inside the icon
shortcut properties. At least if it is done with your current user rights,
the hotkey should work with your user rights, immediately.
I saw your suggestion as to why adding the [control][alt][n] to the
notepad++.lnk shortcut required an OK from Admin but I doubt I created those
original shortcuts as admin (since I'm almost never logged in, explicitly
anyway, as admin - although the one user I am has admin privileges).

However, I'm not in the least worried about the request for admin, since
both you and VanguardLH kindly reported you didn't have that minor annoyance
anyway - so it's just a fluke of the way my system is set up (which is set
up pretty tightly).

Anyway, in summary, all is solved in that the following is my summary:
1. It's likely not feasible for a person like me to try to write a script
that calls an external editor for Dialog unless that script already
exists (where I can re-purpose its call from editor1 to editor2).

2. It's easy enough to cut-and-paste from a Dialog composition window
into the desired editor and then to paste back when done editing.

3. All the steps were just to make that cut and paste a set of keyboard
shortcuts, where the _new_ keyboard shortcut, thanks to this thread
was to add [control][alt][n] instead of what I was using prior, which
was [windows][r][n][enter] to bring up Notepad++.

For those of you who wish to experiment with the App Paths, just add any key
you like of any name you like, where the only rule is it _must_ end with
"exe" even if there is very likely no file name of that name in your path.

a. First make sure that the desired key does NOT work, e.g.,
[windows][r][d][enter] (nothing should happen when you do that)

b. Assuming that fails, then open the registry and add & apppath for dialog:
HKLM\SOFTWARE\Microsoft\Windows\CurrentVersion\App Paths\
Add a new key named "d.exe" and have it point to the 40tude dialog exe.
d.exe === "c:\your-path-to\40tude Dialog\dialog.exe"

c. Forevermore, when you want to start 40tude dialog, you just press keys
[windows][r][d][enter] (this should forevermore bring up dialog)

Regards,
bill
--
A cowboy kept trying to draw his gun
Unfortunately, he couldn't find a pencil.
Bernd Rose
2021-08-12 18:07:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by bill
Post by Bernd Rose
you can pin Notepad++ directly to the taskbar while running.
Of course. But I already stated that I'm extremely well organized.
Everything has a place.
And I told you the three places, where keyboard shortcuts are recognized
by the Windows OS without severe additional effort. If you will not use
any of the 3 places (to keep your systematic order), then you have to
forgo shortcuts, altogether. (Or set up specific keyboard interception
tools.) - Running in circles with impossibilities is fruitless.
Post by bill
Besides, _all_ the programs I use, including the editors, have an AppPaths
key dedicated to bringing them up if and when I (rarely) want to.
So, for example, to bring up "vim", I just type [windows][r][v][enter].
To bring up Notepad++, I type [windows][r][n][enter].
To bring up MS Word, I type [windows][r][w][enter].
etcetera
These are no shortcuts, but keystroke sequences. *Huge* difference!
Post by bill
For decades for organizational reasons, my choice has been to not put file
editor shortcuts in the taskbar.
/Or/ on desktop /or/ the start menu. Then all standard choices are exhausted
and EOT.

Bernd
VanguardLH
2021-08-13 00:12:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bernd Rose
And I told you the three places, where keyboard shortcuts are recognized
by the Windows OS without severe additional effort. If you will not use
any of the 3 places (to keep your systematic order), then you have to
forgo shortcuts, altogether. (Or set up specific keyboard interception
tools.) - Running in circles with impossibilities is fruitless.
Or toss even more software at the solution, like AutoHotkey, AutoIt, a
macro for a programmable key in the keyboard, or something that gets
installed that will intercept a hotkey combination.
bill
2021-08-13 01:55:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by VanguardLH
Post by Bernd Rose
And I told you the three places, where keyboard shortcuts are recognized
by the Windows OS without severe additional effort. If you will not use
any of the 3 places (to keep your systematic order), then you have to
forgo shortcuts, altogether. (Or set up specific keyboard interception
tools.) - Running in circles with impossibilities is fruitless.
Or toss even more software at the solution, like AutoHotkey, AutoIt, a
macro for a programmable key in the keyboard, or something that gets
installed that will intercept a hotkey combination.
Thanks to all for helping to solve this problem where I strive to use native
tools to modify Windows so AutoHotkey would be the last tool I would use
(along with sysinternals, nirsoft, majorgeekstweaks, winaero, windows
classic menu, windowsclub, etc., all of which I'm well aware of what they
do).

Instead of kludges, I use _native_ Windows to effect all my changes
(if possible).

What I was hoping was that I wasn't the first person to want Dialog to edit
in any given editor (whether that's vim or notepad++ or emacs or atom, etc).

Then I would just repurpose the call to editor1 and change it to editor2.

From what Bernd said, that's not going to easily happen, and certainly I'm
not the one to write the script, so the next best thing is to continue with
what I was doing, which is cut and paste into the editor of choice.

What I like most about vim is my many decades of finger memory can do
anything, so 1/4 of the time I'm pasting into vim when I need to munge the
text appreciably.

But vim can't handle the pasting of inconsistent "web characters" of which
there are thousands out there starting from "curly quotes" and ranging to
invisible "non zero width breaking spaces" (with thousands in between) so
when I'm combining quotes from multiple articles 1/4 of the time I'm
composing in Notepad++ which can call macros that handle things that I
haven't figured out yet how to find-and-replace in vim (for example, many
characters show up as black rectangles in vim that show up in Notepad++).

Of course 1/2 the time the default Dialog editor works just fine (as with
this note of thanks, which doesn't really contain either the pasted quotes
from web articles nor does it contain data lists that need to be munged).

Bernd mentioned that the shortcut (Notepad++.lnk) has to be in one of three
places in order for the [control][alt][n] to work and I understood that from
the start (it's just that I don't generally use those three places but for
now I have a Notepad++.lnk with the [control][alt][n] defined as the only
item in my StartMenu.

Vanguard mentioned there's nothing horrible about the standard Dialog
composition window which I agree with half the time (see why the Dialog
composition window fails in the other half above).

A few people mentioned all sorts of workarounds but the real workaround
would be to find out that I'm not the first person to want to have Dialog
call an external editor from the composition window.

Then I would take THAT dialog pascal ds code and change "editor1" to
"editor1" and we'd all be happy with that solution (if it exists).

A second option Bernd already explained would fail, which would have been to
save a Draft to the file system and then bring up that draft with any
editor, but that's even less likely to happen than finding someone else who
has written code to have Dialog call an external editor that I can
repurpose.

In the end, I'm happy with the solution I already have where the
[control][alt][n] suggestion from KerrMudgeon saved me a couple of
keystrokes over what I was using which was [windows][r][n][enter].

I am always wanting to save keystrokes just as I'm always striving for near
perfect grammar and, as such, was heartened to see that three people from
a.u.e came over here (Quinn, Curmudgeon, and Lewis) to help us out.

Regards,
bill
--
Why was the pencil brought in for questioning
Because they thought he was sketchy
VanguardLH
2021-08-13 04:56:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by bill
What I was hoping was that I wasn't the first person to want Dialog to edit
in any given editor (whether that's vim or notepad++ or emacs or atom, etc).
That would require an add-on, extension, or plug-in interface where you
could, for example, use a plug-in to call an external program. Dialog
was discontinued back in 2002 with a slight update in 2005. It is
abandonware, so what it had then is what it still has and will continue
to only have. I use it, it's a good NNTP client, scripts made it
configurable, but it's been long dead.

I don't know if the source code is available. The site for the scripts
disappeared, so probably the source code vaporized, too. From BernD's
mention, and from the scripts you can add to Dialog, looks like Dialog
was written using Delphi (aka Object Pascal).
Quinn C
2021-08-13 14:08:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by VanguardLH
Post by bill
What I was hoping was that I wasn't the first person to want Dialog to edit
in any given editor (whether that's vim or notepad++ or emacs or atom, etc).
That would require an add-on, extension, or plug-in interface where you
could, for example, use a plug-in to call an external program. Dialog
was discontinued back in 2002 with a slight update in 2005. It is
abandonware, so what it had then is what it still has and will continue
to only have. I use it, it's a good NNTP client, scripts made it
configurable, but it's been long dead.
I don't know if the source code is available.
It is not, never was.
Post by VanguardLH
The site for the scripts
disappeared, so probably the source code vaporized, too.
Many scripts are available here, but the descriptions are in German
only: <https://www.barghahn-online.de/4td_tb_scripts/index.php>
Post by VanguardLH
From BernD's
mention, and from the scripts you can add to Dialog, looks like Dialog
was written using Delphi (aka Object Pascal).
Correct.
--
The Eskimoes had fifty-two names for snow because it was
important to them, there ought to be as many for love.
-- Margaret Atwood, Surfacing (novel), p.106
bill
2021-08-13 16:15:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Quinn C
Many scripts are available here, but the descriptions are in German
only: <https://www.barghahn-online.de/4td_tb_scripts/index.php>
I don't know German but Google translate might help me.
I had seen that repo but I was looking in the wayback machine mostly.

In addition, I found out in the Windows newsgroup a trick explained below.
Post by Quinn C
If you hold down CTRL+SHIFT while tapping the key, the
shortcut becomes CTRL+SHIFT+(key).
Here's how I tested it.

1. First I tested both combinations on a new machine.
[control][alt][n] did nothing when run with the focus on the desktop.
With focus on the desktop [control][shift][n] created a new folder

2. Then I created two Notepad++.lnk shortcuts with the "Shortcut key".
A StartMenu "Notepad++.lnk "Shortcut key" was set to [control][alt][n]
A Desktop "Notepad++.lnk "Shortcut key" was set to[control][shift][n]

While editing the Notepad++.lnk properties "Shortcut key" field,
if you hold down CTRL+SHIFT while tapping the key, the shortcut key
switches from CTRL+ALT+(key) to CTRL+SHIFT+(key).

3. Then when I tested both combinations.
[control][alt][n] opened Notepad++
[control][shift][n] no longer created a new folder - it opened Notepad++

Regards,
bill
--
So I was going to tell you a joke about a broken pencil...
But nevermind, it's pointless.
Bernd Rose
2021-08-13 03:53:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by VanguardLH
Post by Bernd Rose
And I told you the three places, where keyboard shortcuts are recognized
by the Windows OS without severe additional effort. If you will not use
any of the 3 places (to keep your systematic order), then you have to
forgo shortcuts, altogether. (Or set up specific keyboard interception
tools.) - Running in circles with impossibilities is fruitless.
Or toss even more software at the solution, like AutoHotkey, AutoIt, a
macro for a programmable key in the keyboard, or something that gets
installed that will intercept a hotkey combination.
Yes!

Apart from this approach: Even with extreme self-restrictions wrt. placing
shortcuts to programs only in completely logical places and leave desktop,
taskbar and start menu as clean and empty as possible: I do not see, why
bill doesn't just create a dedicated subfolder in the start menu named
"Hotkey-Center" (or sth. like that). He then could place each and every
(icon) shortcut to programs there, which he wants to assigne a (hotkey)
shortcut to. - This would be logical, clean and unobtrusive...

Bernd
bill
2021-08-13 05:01:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bernd Rose
I do not see, why
bill doesn't just create a dedicated subfolder in the start menu named
"Hotkey-Center" (or sth. like that). He then could place each and every
(icon) shortcut to programs there, which he wants to assigne a (hotkey)
shortcut to. - This would be logical, clean and unobtrusive...
That's a great idea as it could be the only section of the StartMenu NOT
cleaned out periodically of the crud that goes there over time by programs.
C:\ProgramData\Microsoft\Windows\Start Menu\Programs\Hotkey-Center\

At the moment, the ONLY thing in my StartMenu is this one Notepad++ shortcut
anyway, which I could easily put in that subfolder in the StartMenu.

Nonetheless, what's odd is that I can't be the first person to want the
newsreader to bring up an editor of choice, so I'll keep looking to see if
there's a dialog script somewhere to bring up "editor1" that I can repurpose
to bring up "editor2."

I'll let you know when or if I find it.

Regards,
bill
--
What do you call a pencil sharpener that can't sharpen pencils?
Broken
Bernd Rose
2021-08-13 16:15:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by bill
Nonetheless, what's odd is that I can't be the first person to want the
newsreader to bring up an editor of choice, so I'll keep looking to see if
there's a dialog script somewhere to bring up "editor1" that I can repurpose
to bring up "editor2."
I'll let you know when or if I find it.
I followed most of the discussions on 40tude scripting over the years.
Therefore, I know where to look. (And usually, what I'll find.)

Moreover, I already wrote you, which functions would have to be called
in what order, to roughly achieve what you want. And I pointed out some
potential quirks. - Like wrap override characters, which aren't part of
the general text buffer. Instead, they get a special treatment, which
will only be applied when these characters are manually entered inside
the Dialog Compose window. (And not when imported with a text from disk
or clipboard.)

If you /really/ want to go this way, then take the Korrnews script from
Jarrod Cifer as a starting point:

http://web.archive.org/web/20120127150159/http://dialog.datalist.org/scripts/ScriptSaveOutboundMessage.html

To cite his final note:
| Obviously any other external program can be used as well.

Bernd
bill
2021-08-13 16:23:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bernd Rose
http://web.archive.org/web/20120127150159/http://dialog.datalist.org/scripts/ScriptSaveOutboundMessage.html
Thanks for unearthing that as I was looking through the wayback machine
and guessing that the editor was either "notepad" or "vim" or "emacs", etc.
Post by Bernd Rose
| Obviously any other external program can be used as well.
After changing the program below from "korrnews" to "notepad++",
since I already have an OnBeforeSendingMessage script, do I just
concatenate this after the existing OnBeforeSendingMessage script?

program OnBeforeSendingMessage;

function OnBeforeSendingMessage(var Message: TStringlist; Servername: string; IsEmail: boolean):boolean;
begin
result:=true;
message.savetofile('C:\temp.txt');
//give korrnews 5000 milliseconds for this, otherwise give up
FileExecute(0,'F:\Korrnews\korrnews.exe','open','Type:news Filename:"C:\temp.txt"','',1,5000);
message.loadfromfile('C:\temp.txt');
end;

begin
end.
--
So I used a blunt pencil yesterday...
It was pointless.
Bernd Rose
2021-08-13 17:26:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by bill
Post by Bernd Rose
http://web.archive.org/web/20120127150159/http://dialog.datalist.org/scripts/ScriptSaveOutboundMessage.html
[...]
Post by bill
After changing the program below from "korrnews" to "notepad++",
since I already have an OnBeforeSendingMessage script, do I just
concatenate this after the existing OnBeforeSendingMessage script?
In theory: You mix both scripts into one and order the commands in
a logical way during that mixing.

In practice: You don't do it, at all!

Having the right commands at hands isn't even half of it. Placing
such a call to an external editor in OnBeforeSendingMessage cries
out for problems. You'd need to hit <Send> inside the 40tude Compose
window before even beginning with editing. You sure could add a
return value of failure to this script, which would bring you back
to the editor. If you do not return, but send unconditionally, you
loose the ability to cancel a post. Of course, you can add another
inquiry ("Send or not?") to the script. But this would, again, just
increase complexity.

Sometimes, you may wish just to send a message without the detour
to Notepad++. Permitting this, requires additional code. As would
returning from Notepad++, cancelling the send, changing a bit within
the 40tude Compose window and /then/ send.

Because 40tude assigns charsets on-the-fly, your saved intermediate
text file could have /any/ encoding. After loading the text inside
Notepad++, you may need to adjust the encoding to avoid the creation
of mixed-encoding texts. (Which will lead to wrong characters after
sending.) Reloading the text into the 40tude text buffer may again
result in a misinterpretation of the current charset and encoding
errors. (When loading from disk, 40tude has not the means to deduce
the charset, that it has when accepting input from keystrokes.)

And on top of all that: The current korrnews script expects the text
back from the external program after 5 seconds. You sure could tinker
with this value without problems. But do you know a time span, which
is long enough for your longest (or most researched and revised)
texts as well as not too long for your quickest responses? - Most
likely not. So you'd need to walk a /completely/ different path.

And there is more to be considered...

It wasn't by accident, that I initially recommended to /not/ pursue
the approach of calling an external editor by 40tude Dialog script.
And I /still/ strongly advise you, to leave this matter be...

Bernd
bill
2021-08-13 18:09:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bernd Rose
In theory: You mix both scripts into one and order the commands in
a logical way during that mixing.
I apologize I sent that last message before I saw this, as I was working
on the solution the entire time so I didn't check the newsgroup first
and we both posted at about the same time.

This works but it only works standalone:
function OnBeforeSendingMessage(var Message: TStringlist; Servername: string; IsEmail: boolean):boolean;
begin
result:=true;
message.savetofile('C:\temp\dialog.txt');
FileExecute(0,'C:\program files\notepad++\notepad++.exe','open','"C:\temp\dialog.txt"','',1,50000);
message.loadfromfile('C:\temp\dialog.txt');
end;

begin
end.
Post by Bernd Rose
Having the right commands at hands isn't even half of it. Placing
such a call to an external editor in OnBeforeSendingMessage cries
out for problems. You'd need to hit <Send> inside the 40tude Compose
window before even beginning with editing.
Yup. I saw that. It's ok. Worse case it sends an incomplete message.
No big deal. I increased the failure time to five seconds just in case.
Post by Bernd Rose
You sure could add a
return value of failure to this script, which would bring you back
to the editor.
I tried adding the return value of false to a variety of locations.

function OnBeforeSendingMessage(var Message: TStringlist; Servername: string; IsEmail: boolean):boolean;
begin
// result:=true;
result:=false;
message.savetofile('C:\temp\dialog.txt');
FileExecute(0,'C:\program files\notepad++\notepad++.exe','open','"C:\temp\dialog.txt"','',1,5000);
result:=false;
message.loadfromfile('C:\temp\dialog.txt');
result:=false;
end;

begin
end.

No matter _where_ I put the return value of false it errors with:
"Posting article failed: Posting canceled by "OnBeforeSendingMessage" script."
Post by Bernd Rose
If you do not return, but send unconditionally, you
loose the ability to cancel a post. Of course, you can add another
inquiry ("Send or not?") to the script. But this would, again, just
increase complexity.
I'll have to figure out how to get back to the composition window
but the return value of false just kills the process and does nothing.
Post by Bernd Rose
Sometimes, you may wish just to send a message without the detour
to Notepad++. Permitting this, requires additional code. As would
returning from Notepad++, cancelling the send, changing a bit within
the 40tude Compose window and /then/ send.
Agreed.
Post by Bernd Rose
Because 40tude assigns charsets on-the-fly, your saved intermediate
text file could have /any/ encoding. After loading the text inside
Notepad++, you may need to adjust the encoding to avoid the creation
of mixed-encoding texts.
That's the entire reason why I use notepad++ in the first place!
(Notepad++ has a macro to fix all inconsistent character encoding.)
Post by Bernd Rose
It wasn't by accident, that I initially recommended to /not/ pursue
the approach of calling an external editor by 40tude Dialog script.
And I /still/ strongly advise you, to leave this matter be...
I would like to experiment with it for a while to see if the dangers
outweigh the benefits (or vice versa).

I can't for the life of me figure out how to _combine_ two
OnBeforeSendingMessage scripts (I've tried every syntax guess
I could figure out and they all fail).

For now, _that_ is what I will work on because otherwise I'll
never be able to do two things in the OnBeforeSendingMessage task.
Bernd Rose
2021-08-13 18:54:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by bill
FileExecute(0,'C:\program files\notepad++\notepad++.exe','open','"C:\temp\dialog.txt"','',1,50000);
FileExecute is a wrapper for ShellExecute. To understand the purpose of
each parameter you may look here:

https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/win32/api/shellapi/nf-shellapi-shellexecutea

Please note, that lpOperation and lpFile interchanged position and
FileExecute has an additional wait timer (in milliseconds) as last
parameter.
Post by bill
You sure could add a return value of failure to this script, which would
bring you back to the editor.
[...]
Post by bill
"Posting article failed: Posting canceled by "OnBeforeSendingMessage" script."
Correct behavior for "return:=false". It doesn't bring you back to the
Compose windows (what I meant with "editor"), but just doesn't send the
message and leaves it inside the Dialog Outbox.
Post by bill
Because 40tude assigns charsets on-the-fly, your saved intermediate
text file could have /any/ encoding. After loading the text inside
Notepad++, you may need to adjust the encoding to avoid the creation
of mixed-encoding texts.
That's the entire reason why I use notepad++ in the first place!
(Notepad++ has a macro to fix all inconsistent character encoding.)
Even /if/ you got this part right, you come back into 40tude Dialog at
a time, when it already decided, which charset/encoding it will announce
inside the headers. Therefore, you'd need to adjust them as well (suitable
to your text). Else the charset declaration of your message would most
likely be wrong sometimes or maybe even quite often or nearly always.
Post by bill
I can't for the life of me figure out how to _combine_ two
OnBeforeSendingMessage scripts (I've tried every syntax guess
I could figure out and they all fail).
And we shall guess, what commands your second script contains? Or is this
just you muttering sth. in your boots? ;-)

Bernd
bill
2021-08-13 17:36:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by bill
After changing the program below from "korrnews" to "notepad++",
since I already have an OnBeforeSendingMessage script, do I just
concatenate this after the existing OnBeforeSendingMessage script?
Every time I try to put TWO functions inside of OnBeforeSendingMessage
I fail because I don't know how to put the two functions together into
OnBeforeSendingMessage.

Anyway, the original program originally failed but I got it to work standalone.
It has a dubious benefit that it seems to also allow header edits.
(Editing headers would be risky, at best, I would think.)

*But I can't get it to work with my _existing_ OnBeforeSendingMessage.*

But standalone it works.

Here's where I am where I started with this.
http://web.archive.org/web/20120127150159/http://dialog.datalist.org/scripts/ScriptSaveOutboundMessage.html

program OnBeforeSendingMessage;

function OnBeforeSendingMessage(var Message: TStringlist; Servername: string; IsEmail: boolean):boolean;
begin
result:=true;
message.savetofile('C:\temp.txt');
//give korrnews 5000 milliseconds for this, otherwise give up
FileExecute(0,'F:\Korrnews\korrnews.exe','open','Type:news Filename:"C:\temp.txt"','',1,5000);
message.loadfromfile('C:\temp.txt');
end;

begin
end.

I first changed that to point to a different file and editor.

function OnBeforeSendingMessage(var Message: TStringlist; Servername: string; IsEmail: boolean):boolean;
begin
result:=true;
message.savetofile('C:\temp\dialog.txt');
FileExecute(0,'C:\program files\notepad++\notepad++.exe','open','Type:news Filename:"C:\temp\dialog.txt"','',1,5000);
message.loadfromfile('C:\temp\dialog.txt');
end;

begin
end.

That gave the following errors, in 1,2,3 sequence.

"C:\program files\dialog\Type:news" doesn't exist. Create it?
"C:\program files\dialog\Filename" doesn't exist. Create it?
Cannot create the file "C:\program files\dialog\Filename".

So I changed the program to this (which worked without errors).
[Notice I completely removed "Type:news Filename:" to make it work.]

function OnBeforeSendingMessage(var Message: TStringlist; Servername: string; IsEmail: boolean):boolean;
begin
result:=true;
message.savetofile('C:\temp\dialog.txt');
FileExecute(0,'C:\program files\notepad++\notepad++.exe','open','"C:\temp\dialog.txt"','',1,50000);
message.loadfromfile('C:\temp\dialog.txt');
end;

begin
end.

That works perfectly - but only when it's the only OnBeforeSendingMessage script.
1. The Dialog composition window comes up.
2. When I select Dialog's Action->Send Now it opens it in Notepad++.
3. When I save and exit Notepad++ only then does it send the message.

So it works but I _already_ have an OnBeforeSendingMessage script.
I can't for the life of me figure out the syntax of combining the two.

Can you give me a hint how to get it to work with my existing "OnBeforeSendingMessage"?
I already tried all the ways of moving the "begin/end" stuff around.

How do you get _TWO_ OnBeforeSendingMessage procedures to work sequentially?
Quinn C
2021-08-13 23:13:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by bill
How do you get _TWO_ OnBeforeSendingMessage procedures to work sequentially?
Here's how my OnBeforeSendingMessage looks like:



program OnBeforeSendingMessage;

uses textfile, Forms, StdCtrls;

{$I Include_AddFaceHeader.ds}
{$I CancelLock_include.ds}
{$I RemoveAnyHeader_include.ds}
{$I Include_AddAnyHeader.ds}

function OnBeforeSendingMessage(var Message: TStringlist; Servername:
string; IsEmail: boolean):boolean;
begin
result:=true;

AddFaceHeader ( Message, IsEmail );
CLMain_CancelLock (Message, IsEmail);
// Remove_Headers (Message, IsEmail );
// AddAnyHeader ('X-CustomScript: AddAnyHeader', Message, IsEmail);
// AddAnyHeader ('X-ScriptMadeBy: me, myself & I', Message,
IsEmail);
// AddAnyHeader ('X-NoArchive: banter', Message, IsEmail);

end;

begin
end.



The point, the clean solution is to call other "custom scripts" from
this one.
--
No ... it's a good thing that one of the most famous bigots
in the country [now supports Bernie].
-- Page Kreisman, talking about Joe Rogan
Kerr-Mudd, John
2021-08-12 11:07:12 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 11 Aug 2021 19:48:07 +0200
Post by bill
Post by Kerr-Mudd, John
Windows (well my XP flavour!) allows you to assign a shortcut key
to a desktop icon - I just assigned N to Notepad
[I've already cheated and overwrote the old notepad.exe with Notepad2]
Hi there ker-muhj-uhn,
Windows 10 isn't much different than XP except in the pretty background.
In Dialog I tried [control][alt][n] which did nothing (it's a good start).
Post by Kerr-Mudd, John
This allows Ctrl-Alt-N to open Notepad2.
I went to my taskbar menu shortcut for notepad++.lnk to set properties.
It wouldn't let me type anything but a single character such as [n].
It asked for Administrator Permission which I said "OK" to.
But then when I typed [control][alt][n] nothing happened.
Googling I found maybe it must be in the start menu apparently?
https://www.google.com/search?q=how+to+set+shortcut+key+in+windows+10
I'm not sure why it doesn't work with ANY shortcut, but maybe it has to be a
shortcut that is in the path?
Anyway, that worked by setting the start menu Notepad++ shortcut.
I always use the WinXP style menus (which is simply a menu folder pinned to
the taskbar) so I would never use the Win10 start menu and I often clear it
out so I'm lucky it was still there.
Post by Kerr-Mudd, John
{You don't get any option but to have the "Ctrl-Alt-" part}
I just tried it in this composition Window and it worked nicely.
That saves a few keystrokes.
Excellent
Post by bill
Here's kind of what I do (although circumstances dictate the steps).
0. In Dialog on interesting threads I press [shift][w]
This runs a keep-and-highlight script previously supplied by Bernd.
1. I then read an article that I wish to reply to by pressing [f]
2. In the 40tude dialog composition window I press [control][a]
3. Then [control][x]
4. Now (thanks to you) I press [control][alt][n]
5. Then [control][v]
6. Then I can edit to my heart's content and when I'm ready to return
7. In Notepad++ I press [control][a][control][x][alt][f4] (which kills it)
8. Back in Dialog I press [control][v]
9. In Dialog I press "a_a_a" (without the underscore)
This runs a dictionary replace from Bernd which does my salutation.
10. The only mouse action is to send this article to the nntp server.
So I suggest you post this to a windows scripting NG, or try something yourself; Autokey was the one I used to use; but it's important to ensure you're on the correct window before issuing the keystrokes!
--
Bah, and indeed Humbug.
bill
2021-08-12 15:54:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kerr-Mudd, John
Post by bill
I just tried it in this composition Window and it worked nicely.
That saves a few keystrokes.
Excellent
Hi Curmudgeon,
I'm very happy you stepped in to help us with that [control][alt][n]
keyboard shortcut to bring up Notepad++ for the cut and paste operation.

I learned a lot in that it works beautifully, assuming the Notepad++.lnk
shortcut is in the places most people normal store it (e.g., in the
StartMenu, which I normally keep quite empty but which had happened to have
a Notepad++.lnk shortcut - probably due to an update or whatever).
Post by Kerr-Mudd, John
So I suggest you post this to a windows scripting NG
or try something yourself;
While I've coded when I've needed to, I don't like the way they all do the
same thing with different syntax, which I have no patience for nowadays.

Coding to me is like visiting someone in their house and having to follow
their very strange rules on how to hold the fork, how to sit, which chair to
sit on, how to ask to go to the bathroom and when, etc.

I have no patience anymore for programming languages which all do the same
thing with completely different esoteric syntax rules.

What I was _hoping_ for was to find that I wasn't the first person to want
my newsreader composition window to open up in an editor of my choice, which
is what I originally searched for using Google.

I was surprised I'm the first person to want to open up a composition window
in _any_ editor where I was hoping to repurpose the call to "editor1" and to
change it to "editor2" which I would think, if the code exists, would be
easy.

But alas, the code doesn't appear to exist as I may be the first person to
want to do this, at least with Dialog. Sigh.
Post by Kerr-Mudd, John
Autokey was the one I used to use; but it's important to ensure you're
on the correct window before issuing the keystrokes!
I am a believer in doing things the "native" way when possible in terms of
getting Windows to do what Windows needs to do.

So, for example, I never added WinXP Classic Menu tools just to get a WinXP
menu since WinXP menus were ALWAYS native on Windows, yes, even on Windows 8
and Windows 10 (we'll see about Windows 11).

It's just that Microsoft wanted to "look" different in Windows 8 that they
removed the accordion style cascade pullout WinXP menu from plain sight -
but it was ALWAYS still there - and - in fact - I moved (literally) the
files from WinXP and they worked perfectly on Win8 which I then moved to
Win10 (different machines!) and they _still_ worked perfectly.

Of course, I put all my programs in the same place on all machines so that
might not work for people less organized than I am - but it works for me.

That's a long-winded way of saying that I don't like to use AutoKey (or
Nirsoft tools, or sysinternals, or defaultprogramseditor, winaero,
majorgeekstweeks, etc.) tools unless the capability truly isn't there in
native Windows (and it usually is).

Thanks for your help.
I usually see you when I'm lurking over on the a.u.e newsgroup.

Regards,
bill
Kerr-Mudd, John
2021-08-13 11:18:58 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 12 Aug 2021 17:54:14 +0200
Post by bill
Post by Kerr-Mudd, John
Post by bill
I just tried it in this composition Window and it worked nicely.
That saves a few keystrokes.
Excellent
Hi Curmudgeon,
I'm very happy you stepped in to help us with that [control][alt][n]
keyboard shortcut to bring up Notepad++ for the cut and paste operation.
No worries, bill; or can I call you Mr Cunningham?
Post by bill
I learned a lot in that it works beautifully, assuming the Notepad++.lnk
shortcut is in the places most people normal store it (e.g., in the
StartMenu, which I normally keep quite empty but which had happened to have
a Notepad++.lnk shortcut - probably due to an update or whatever).
Post by Kerr-Mudd, John
So I suggest you post this to a windows scripting NG
or try something yourself;
While I've coded when I've needed to, I don't like the way they all do the
same thing with different syntax, which I have no patience for nowadays.
Ah well, you'll have to stick with all those keystrokes.
[]
Post by bill
Thanks for your help.
I usually see you when I'm lurking over on the a.u.e newsgroup.
--
Bah, and indeed Humbug.
VanguardLH
2021-08-11 17:52:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by bill
To open notepad while I'm in Dialog I can type [WindowsKey][r][n][EnterKey]
That brings up Notepad++ from within anywhere while I'm in 40Tude Dialog.
To be more clear, I could have typed [WindowsKey][r][notepad++][EnterKey]
from within Dialog but that would be too many clicks to do the same task.
I do NOT auto-hide the Windows Taskbar, the default. I added several
toolbars to let me group programs. Whatever program I'm in, I just
double-click the shortcut in a toolbar. A double-click is a lot shorter
than using the Start menu search. I use toolbars in the Taskbar as a
quick-access method to programs (double-click), even faster than using
the Start menu's search <Start>string<arrowkeys><Enter>, or bringing up
the Run dialog using <Win+R>string<Enter>.

If a program is windowed, even if maximized, the Taskbar is shown. Only
if a program is fullscreened is the Taskbar obliterated. Dialog doesn't
support fullscreen mode (F11 does nothing in Dialog).
bill
2021-08-11 18:26:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by VanguardLH
I do NOT auto-hide the Windows Taskbar, the default.
You and Bernd have helped me a lot since I moved to Dialog which I
appreciate greatly as you have detailed words of wisdom as much as Bernd's
are more terse (but just as wise).

(Bernd doesn't try to lecture as much as you do - as his patience is thinner
than yours is - Bernd just gives up when someone does something he doesn't
like whereas you try to set them on the straight path - which is OK too.)

To your concerns, I have multiple monitors where I keep the taskbar for each
on the side to save the most important real estate in today's wide-ratio
monitors.

For the left monitor, I have the taskbar in the right side.
For the right monitor, the taskbar matches it by being on its left side.

Both have all the normal settings to make them as small as possible.

But Notepad++ isn't on that taskbar for the simple reason that no program
that is used as an editor is on the taskbar for the simple reason that you
rarely just open an editor in normal use. You open a file. At least I do.

So my valuable taskbar space only has shortcuts to programs that you do open
up to nothing (although many, like browsers, open to specific places).
Post by VanguardLH
I added several toolbars to let me group programs.
Like you, I use taskbar toolbars to my advantage (they cascade nicely).

Long ago, the instant I moved off of WinXP, I copied my WinXP menu to each
successive Windows and simply added the menu hierarchy as a taskbar toolbar.

WinXP cascade pullout accordion menus never left Windows.

I copy them over from old to new PCs and almost all the shortcuts work
perfectly without changing anything (I install all software in the same
places of course).
Post by VanguardLH
Whatever program I'm in, I just
double-click the shortcut in a toolbar. A double-click is a lot shorter
than using the Start menu search.
I agree with you so much that I periodically clean out the Start Menu.
Both the alphabetical Start Menu and the idiotic tiled Start Menu.
They're usually empty (just in case I accidentally hit their open keys.)

I was lucky that the shortcut to Notepad++ was in the almost empty StartMenu
(it must have been re-created during an update as my StartMenu is normally
empty).

I did ask over on the Windows newsgroup just now why the taskbar toolbar
shortcut to Notepad++ couldn't be assigned a shortcut key.
Post by VanguardLH
I use toolbars in the Taskbar as a
quick-access method to programs (double-click), even faster than using
the Start menu's search <Start>string<arrowkeys><Enter>, or bringing up
the Run dialog using <Win+R>string<Enter>.
As I said, I have a WinXP style menu toolbar attached to the Windows 10
taskbar which accesses every program I want to access, in the hierarchies I
want them accessed, and without the other crap that they add to the
StartMenu (you know what crap I mean I'm sure).

I also have a permanent non-hidden taskbar (small icons, no labels) where I
store the critical programs (mostly browsers and programs I need to run
fast, like network kill switches or taskkill commands).

[A warning here is that tasks which need to be run fast MUST have shortcuts,
simply because they usually involved the UAC popups which you don't want to
deal with so you have to put the shortcuts in the task scheduler. I'm think
you know what I mean there but ask if you're unsure.]

Sos my taskbar is already taken up with those two things.
1. Network and app kill switches which must be run fast
2. Non-editing apps (mostly browsers) which I use frequently

If I need to access any given file, I just put the file name into the run
menu. For example, for my todo list, I type "todo" into the run menu, or for
my phone list, I just type "phone" into the run menu, etc.

All that file editing is done more efficiently using the App Paths key.
HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SOFTWARE\Microsoft\Windows\CurrentVersion\App Paths\
todo.exe === c:\Users\bill\My Documents\todo.txt
phone.exe === c:\Users\bill\My Documents\phone.txt
serialz.exe === c:\Users\bill\My Documents\serialz.txt
etcetera
Post by VanguardLH
If a program is windowed, even if maximized, the Taskbar is shown. Only
if a program is fullscreened is the Taskbar obliterated. Dialog doesn't
support fullscreen mode (F11 does nothing in Dialog).
While I keep my taskbars permanent, my main beef with the Win10 taskbar on
dual monitors is you can't make them EXACTLY the same (they're slightly
different).

Luckily I found a use for that slight difference which is that you can
maintain your PC on one time zone and switch to another with a script that
constantly changes the system time zone (for fingerprinting privacy).

One taskbar can have the system time zone (which is constantly changing on a
pseudo random interval) while the other taskbar can show the local time
(which doesn't depend on the system time).

As you can see I make extensive use of the "Run" sequence where it's one of
my icons in the taskbar (Run.lnk) because I use it so much. There's nothing
that the Run.lnk shortcut can't do, so for anything you do frequently, you
can just put it in the "App Paths" registry key and then you can "Run" it
anytime you want.

The great advantage is that one icon runs everything so it is worth the
space it takes on the taskbar. You just need to remember all your Run
commands, which, itself, is one of the commands in Run.
Run->run (which brings up a list of all the Run commands you created)

Never forget the beauty of these well thought out systems is they work the
same on ALL PCs, whether they're Win95 or WinXP or Win7, Vista, etcetera.

Everything copies over perfectly and usually works on the first test.

Regards,
bill
--
A blind girl lost her pencil, her ring, and her dog, what did she lose
first? Her eye sight.
Quinn C
2021-08-11 18:23:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by bill
I was hoping Dialog's "Save & Close Draft" would save the composition to a
given location but I can't find the saved draft in a text-editable format.
It should be in the Drafts folder.
--
The least questioned assumptions are often the most questionable
-- Paul Broca
... who never questioned that men are more intelligent than women
bill
2021-08-11 18:36:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Quinn C
Post by bill
I was hoping Dialog's "Save & Close Draft" would save the composition to a
given location but I can't find the saved draft in a text-editable format.
It should be in the Drafts folder.
It "should" be.

But there is no "Drafts" folder that I know of in my Dialog hierarchy.
40tude Dialog has folders for {locale,maps,Scripts,dicts,logs,temp,data}.
If the saved draft is in a text-editable file somewhere, I'd love to know.

Regards,
bill
--
Here is a joke about a pencil with a broken tip.
Never mind it is pointless.
Bernd Rose
2021-08-11 19:57:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by bill
Post by Quinn C
Post by bill
I was hoping Dialog's "Save & Close Draft" would save the composition to a
given location but I can't find the saved draft in a text-editable format.
It should be in the Drafts folder.
It "should" be.
But there is no "Drafts" folder that I know of in my Dialog hierarchy.
40tude Dialog has folders for {locale,maps,Scripts,dicts,logs,temp,data}.
If the saved draft is in a text-editable file somewhere, I'd love to know.
Quinn was talking about the Drafts folder (= a special "group") name inside
the Newsgroups list of a running Dialog.

Drafts are stored in-memory and when they are saved by closing the Compose
window, they are stored like any other message inside msg*.dat files in the
data directory of 40tude Dialog with header lines saved elsewhere. Nothing
to be messed with any external program.

Bernd
Quinn C
2021-08-11 23:41:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bernd Rose
Post by bill
Post by Quinn C
Post by bill
I was hoping Dialog's "Save & Close Draft" would save the composition to a
given location but I can't find the saved draft in a text-editable format.
It should be in the Drafts folder.
It "should" be.
But there is no "Drafts" folder that I know of in my Dialog hierarchy.
40tude Dialog has folders for {locale,maps,Scripts,dicts,logs,temp,data}.
If the saved draft is in a text-editable file somewhere, I'd love to know.
Quinn was talking about the Drafts folder (= a special "group") name inside
the Newsgroups list of a running Dialog.
Right. I didn't recognize "editable" was meant as "openable in a text
editor"; the drafts are certainly editable within Dialog.
--
Wenn Sie interessiert sind, mit mir freundlicherweise nach vorn
unten Angaben arbeiten:
-- SPAMPOESIE
bill
2021-08-12 02:40:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Quinn C
Post by Bernd Rose
Quinn was talking about the Drafts folder (= a special "group") name inside
the Newsgroups list of a running Dialog.
Right. I didn't recognize "editable" was meant as "openable in a text
editor"; the drafts are certainly editable within Dialog.
Oh. Yeah. My mistake. I didn't realize Quinn was suggesting the "Drafts"
folder inside of the 40tude Dialog GUI, but as Bernd said, that isn't
accessible to the Notepad++ external editor.

I tried to find the saved draft in the file system but I never could find it
and what Bernd said (that it's in a special msg format) means that I won't
be able to edit it from an external editor anyway.

I'm stuck with the method I have currently which is to copy and paste to
Notepad++ and then back using as few keyboard shortcuts as are possible.

Regards,
bill
--
What did the blonde say when the classroom bully stole her pencil?
I LITERALLY CAN'T EVEN WRITE NOW
VanguardLH
2021-08-11 20:02:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by bill
Post by Quinn C
Post by bill
I was hoping Dialog's "Save & Close Draft" would save the
composition to a given location but I can't find the saved draft in
a text-editable format.
It should be in the Drafts folder.
It "should" be.
But there is no "Drafts" folder that I know of in my Dialog hierarchy.
40tude Dialog has folders for {locale,maps,Scripts,dicts,logs,temp,data}.
If the saved draft is in a text-editable file somewhere, I'd love to know.
Quinn probably means the Drafts folder in the hierarchical list of
folders in the message store. There is no Drafts folder in the file
system. Dialog has its Data folder in the file system, but it's a mess
trying to figure which <n>.<ext> file is for what.

When you have Dialog compact its message store (File -> Compact), it
first saves a copy, by default (you can override), of the current
message store under a DATA_OLD<n> folder in the file system. If
compacting results in a corrupted or unusable message store, you can
revert to the old one that was created just before the compaction began.
There is no setting on how many old copies to keep (no backup retention
count), so eventually you'll want to delete the oldest DATA_OLD<n>
folders.

ASIDE: Just now, I noticed I had DATA_OLD and 4 DATA_OLD<n> folders.
I haven't had a problem since the last compaction, so I really only
need 1 old copy, so I deleted the DATA_OLD<n> folders to recover 1.52
GB of disk space, and just kept the DATA_OLD folder. Since I schedule
daily image backups (month full @ 52-week retention, weekly
differential @ 12- week retention, and daily incrementals @ 1-week
retention), so even the DATA_OLD folder is superfluous, but I keep it,
anyway. I just have to remember occasionally to delete the
DATA_OLD<n> folders since I'm not going back that far for a message
store state, plus I probably do compaction only about twice a year, if
that. At one time, I used to visit about 52 newsgroups. I'm down to
21. Not as much data (messages) to store. I have Dialog configured
to download complete messages instead of just headers (and then wait
until I select a message to download it). That way, I get all headers
(overview and non-overview headers) and body on which I can test in my
filters, not just the overview headers.

So, there are DATA[_OLD[n]] subfolders under Dialog's installation
folder. Somewhere under there would be where the "Draft" folder in
Dialog's message store structure. I'm sure the numbered files meant
something to the program's author, but they are meaningless to the rest
of us. The messages are stored in .dat database files. I didn't see an
identifying string near the top of a .dat file to indicate which
database structure was used to manage the .dat files. Each .dat
database file is not wholly self-contained. There are also .idx files
which are probably indexes to records within the .dat files, and .ini
files that hint at some formatting or view settings. Without knowing
what database program was used, or without knowing the database's record
delimiters and record structures, digging into those files would be
fruitless. You could try copying the DATA folder to somewhere else,
like into %temp%, and experimenting with mySQL to see if the database
files use SQL structure. If SQL structure, you could issue queries
using mySQL to read the database.

However, that still does not give you a text-only formatted file in
which messages (retrieved, drafts, sent, etc) are stored. If mySQL
works to dig out the messages, and after discovering which <n>.dat file
is for the Drafts "folder" shown in Dialog, you would have to make SQL
inquiries to extract messages. You'd edit or do whatever with the
extracted record, and then have to use an SQL directive to store the
text back into the database to overwrite the old record. Yeah, right.
Bernd Rose
2021-08-11 20:26:02 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 11st Aug 2021 15:02:35 -0500, VanguardLH wrote:

[40tude Dialog database]
Without knowing what database program was used
None. The "database" is a proprietary invention of Marcus.
without knowing the database's record delimiters and record structures
No delimiters. Most 40tude Dialog database files have a header and a
"fixed record length" data structure. The most important exception are
the msg*.dat files, which contain the message texts one behind the other;
mostly in the order of creation/retrieval. The start and endpoint of
these messages inside these files are stored inside the group specific
files of the database.
digging into those files would be fruitless.
And extremely dangerous. One false bit in the wrong place may render
the whole database unreadable...
However, that still does not give you a text-only formatted file in
which messages (retrieved, drafts, sent, etc) are stored.
Oliver Cromm wrote a Ruby script many years ago to extract raw messages
from the database. I don't recall, if it could be tweaked to extract
drafts, as well. It doesn't matter, though. This way would be even more
complicated than writing a script saving the draft from memory and
reload it later on. - Let alone the simple copy/paste approach...
Yeah, right.
;-)

Bernd
bill
2021-08-12 03:22:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bernd Rose
One false bit in the wrong place may render
the whole database unreadable...
I'll stick with the current solution which is outlined below.
[https://groups.google.com/g/news.software.readers/c/YnzrM4ksL3M]

1. For any interesting thread I'll press [shift][w] to "keep & highlight"
which runs a custom script kindly written by Bernd a while ago for me
[https://groups.google.com/g/news.software.readers/c/mk9bQqKqGts]
2. For any given article I'll press [f] to "follow up" & respond
3. That brings up the article in a 40tude dialog composition window
4. In the composition window I press [control][a] to "select all"
5. Then I press [control][x] to "cut" to the clipboard buffer
6. I can now press [control][alt][n] to bring up Notepad++
7. In Notepad++ I press [control][v] to "paste" into Notepad++
8. In Notepad++ I can manually edit (and also run macros on the data)
When done, in Notepad++ I press [control][a] to "select all"
9. In Notepad++ I press [control][x] to "cut" to the Windows clipboard
10. To close Notepad++ without losing the buffer I press [alt][F4]
11. In Dialog I press [control][v] to "paste" into the composition window
12. In Dialog I type "b-b-b" (no dashes) which brings up my custom sig
which Bernd helped write, using dictionary replacement tricks.
[https://groups.google.com/g/news.software.readers/c/f6UsmRICXkw/m/YSzaaFiEAAAJ]

Regards,
bill
--
I just lost an argument with a pencil.
To be fair, it had a point.
VanguardLH
2021-08-12 07:05:08 UTC
Permalink
What is all this text-mode editing that Dialog's own compose window
won't handle? Doesn't sound like your doing HTML, but just text.

Better be careful when aligning text in a text-only compose window. Tab
on one computer could be 4 space characters while on another computer
could be 8 space characters, so someone reading your article may not see
the alignment you selected, and line-wrap could screw it all up. I use
spaces instead of tab: 2 space characters in my article is also 2 space
characters seen by the user when reading my article in their client.

I just can't see why you need Notepad++ when all you need is a very
basic text editor for text-only messages composed in and sent by Dialog.
Maybe I missed that part. Seems a lot of work to throw a monster text
editor at a simple job; i.e., swatting a fly with a cannon.
Adam H. Kerman
2021-08-12 13:11:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by VanguardLH
What is all this text-mode editing that Dialog's own compose window
won't handle? Doesn't sound like your doing HTML, but just text.
Better be careful when aligning text in a text-only compose window. Tab
on one computer could be 4 space characters while on another computer
could be 8 space characters, so someone reading your article may not see
the alignment you selected, and line-wrap could screw it all up.
What is an example of using a 4 space tab by default in lieu of 8 spaces
in a text editor display? Sure, that can happen using a word processor.
Post by VanguardLH
I use spaces instead of tab: 2 space characters in my article is also 2
space characters seen by the user when reading my article in their client.
Well, you shouldn't substitute spaces for tabs because that's just
annoying. Someone might choose a variable-width font for display because
he finds it easier to read, and there are no tabs to line up.
Post by VanguardLH
I just can't see why you need Notepad++ when all you need is a very
basic text editor for text-only messages composed in and sent by Dialog.
Maybe I missed that part. Seems a lot of work to throw a monster text
editor at a simple job; i.e., swatting a fly with a cannon.
Some people just get used to a feature-rich environment. I use vim which
has dozens of commands I use rarely but it's nice to have access to them
when I need them, plus numerous commands I've never used or learned to use.
Sn!pe
2021-08-12 13:34:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Adam H. Kerman
Post by VanguardLH
What is all this text-mode editing that Dialog's own compose window
won't handle? Doesn't sound like your doing HTML, but just text.
Better be careful when aligning text in a text-only compose window. Tab
on one computer could be 4 space characters while on another computer
could be 8 space characters, so someone reading your article may not see
the alignment you selected, and line-wrap could screw it all up.
What is an example of using a 4 space tab by default in lieu of 8 spaces
in a text editor display? Sure, that can happen using a word processor.
Post by VanguardLH
I use spaces instead of tab: 2 space characters in my article is also 2
space characters seen by the user when reading my article in their client.
Well, you shouldn't substitute spaces for tabs because that's just
annoying.
I beg to differ. Tabs are only meaningful if you can be certain what
all your readers' tab settings are, which just ain't possible on Usenet.
I say use spaces and a fixed-width font to do reliable tabulation.
Post by Adam H. Kerman
Someone might choose a variable-width font for display because
he finds it easier to read, and there are no tabs to line up.
Tabs are useless in variable-width fonts because the width of such
fonts varies, one compared with another.

[...]
--
^Ï^


My pet rock Gordon just is.
Adam H. Kerman
2021-08-12 15:52:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sn!pe
Post by Adam H. Kerman
Post by VanguardLH
What is all this text-mode editing that Dialog's own compose window
won't handle? Doesn't sound like your doing HTML, but just text.
Better be careful when aligning text in a text-only compose window. Tab
on one computer could be 4 space characters while on another computer
could be 8 space characters, so someone reading your article may not see
the alignment you selected, and line-wrap could screw it all up.
What is an example of using a 4 space tab by default in lieu of 8 spaces
in a text editor display? Sure, that can happen using a word processor.
Post by VanguardLH
I use spaces instead of tab: 2 space characters in my article is also 2
space characters seen by the user when reading my article in their client.
Well, you shouldn't substitute spaces for tabs because that's just
annoying.
I beg to differ. Tabs are only meaningful if you can be certain what
all your readers' tab settings are, which just ain't possible on Usenet.
I say use spaces and a fixed-width font to do reliable tabulation.
8-position tabs are a long-standing convention. Yeah, I know clients
don't always implement conventions properly.
Post by Sn!pe
Post by Adam H. Kerman
Someone might choose a variable-width font for display because
he finds it easier to read, and there are no tabs to line up.
Tabs are useless in variable-width fonts because the width of such
fonts varies, one compared with another.
The width of the characters are variable, sure, but tabs still make the
columns line up as intended.

Tab is a proper ASCII character. I object to clients that won't include
the tab character even if the user desires to use it.
Post by Sn!pe
[...]
Sn!pe
2021-08-12 18:17:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Adam H. Kerman
Post by Sn!pe
Post by Adam H. Kerman
Post by VanguardLH
What is all this text-mode editing that Dialog's own compose window
won't handle? Doesn't sound like your doing HTML, but just text.
Better be careful when aligning text in a text-only compose window. Tab
on one computer could be 4 space characters while on another computer
could be 8 space characters, so someone reading your article may not see
the alignment you selected, and line-wrap could screw it all up.
What is an example of using a 4 space tab by default in lieu of 8 spaces
in a text editor display? Sure, that can happen using a word processor.
Post by VanguardLH
I use spaces instead of tab: 2 space characters in my article is also 2
space characters seen by the user when reading my article in their client.
Well, you shouldn't substitute spaces for tabs because that's just
annoying.
I beg to differ. Tabs are only meaningful if you can be certain what
all your readers' tab settings are, which just ain't possible on Usenet.
I say use spaces and a fixed-width font to do reliable tabulation.
8-position tabs are a long-standing convention. Yeah, I know clients
don't always implement conventions properly.
Agreed. MacSOUP (my 'reader) defaults to 8.
Post by Adam H. Kerman
Post by Sn!pe
Post by Adam H. Kerman
Someone might choose a variable-width font for display because
he finds it easier to read, and there are no tabs to line up.
Tabs are useless in variable-width fonts because the width of such
fonts varies, one compared with another.
The width of the characters are variable, sure, but tabs still make the
columns line up as intended.
I'm not convinced...
Post by Adam H. Kerman
Tab is a proper ASCII character. I object to clients that won't include
the tab character even if the user desires to use it.
I see where you're coming from with that. Yes, of course.
--
^Ï^ http://youtu.be/_kqytf31a8E

My pet rock Gordon just is.
Quinn C
2021-08-12 23:39:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Adam H. Kerman
Post by Sn!pe
Post by Adam H. Kerman
Well, you shouldn't substitute spaces for tabs because that's just
annoying.
I beg to differ. Tabs are only meaningful if you can be certain what
all your readers' tab settings are, which just ain't possible on Usenet.
I say use spaces and a fixed-width font to do reliable tabulation.
8-position tabs are a long-standing convention. Yeah, I know clients
don't always implement conventions properly.
I agree with others who've said that tab has no defined meaning on
Usenet (or in emails).
--
A "moderate Republican" now is a far-right Republican who
publicly laments it.
-- John Fugelsang (2021)
VanguardLH
2021-08-13 00:08:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Adam H. Kerman
8-position tabs are a long-standing convention. Yeah, I know clients
don't always implement conventions properly.
8 positions ... of what? 8 space characters? If so, those will be
different than the width of other non-whitespace characters, so
tabulation of content would be impossible. If you use variable-width
fonts, you accept that tabulated data will never align. You use
monospaced fonts with plain-text messages.
Lewis
2021-08-12 16:11:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Adam H. Kerman
Post by VanguardLH
What is all this text-mode editing that Dialog's own compose window
won't handle? Doesn't sound like your doing HTML, but just text.
Better be careful when aligning text in a text-only compose window. Tab
on one computer could be 4 space characters while on another computer
could be 8 space characters, so someone reading your article may not see
the alignment you selected, and line-wrap could screw it all up.
What is an example of using a 4 space tab by default in lieu of 8 spaces
in a text editor display?
What do you mean? People can set their tab stops in text editors to
whatever they want. Coders tend to use 3 or 4, but I have seen 6 often
enough.
Post by Adam H. Kerman
Sure, that can happen using a word processor.
Mo, word processors do not use spaces for tabs at all.
Post by Adam H. Kerman
Post by VanguardLH
I use spaces instead of tab: 2 space characters in my article is also 2
space characters seen by the user when reading my article in their client.
Well, you shouldn't substitute spaces for tabs because that's just
annoying.
I agree that using two spaces instead of a tab is annoying. However,
using 3 or 4 is common. In fact, in my primary editor I have it set so
that when I hit tab it inserts 3 spaces instead of a tab character. This
means regardless of what editor I open the file in, the text looks the
same, not the case if I use a tab character. I would say the minimum
acceptable is 3 and the maximum anyone should use is 6.
Post by Adam H. Kerman
Someone might choose a variable-width font for display because
he finds it easier to read, and there are no tabs to line up.
If you are using a proportional font for viewing plain text files,
you're on your own.
Post by Adam H. Kerman
Post by VanguardLH
I just can't see why you need Notepad++ when all you need is a very
basic text editor for text-only messages composed in and sent by Dialog.
Notepad++ has many very useful features. Yes, you CAN use a very basic
text editor, but that will ne very basic. If you do not need or care
about the features of Notepad++ then don't use it, but many people do
care and many people do use those features.
Post by Adam H. Kerman
Post by VanguardLH
Maybe I missed that part. Seems a lot of work to throw a monster text
editor at a simple job; i.e., swatting a fly with a cannon.
Some people just get used to a feature-rich environment. I use vim which
has dozens of commands I use rarely but it's nice to have access to them
when I need them, plus numerous commands I've never used or learned to use.
I would not consider Notepad++ a "monster text editor"
--
Post by Adam H. Kerman
Post by VanguardLH
Trying?
if you quote yoda, i swear upon everything holy that i will book a
flight to okinawa to kick your ass.
Adam H. Kerman
2021-08-12 20:07:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lewis
Post by Adam H. Kerman
Post by VanguardLH
What is all this text-mode editing that Dialog's own compose window
won't handle? Doesn't sound like your doing HTML, but just text.
Better be careful when aligning text in a text-only compose window. Tab
on one computer could be 4 space characters while on another computer
could be 8 space characters, so someone reading your article may not see
the alignment you selected, and line-wrap could screw it all up.
What is an example of using a 4 space tab by default in lieu of 8 spaces
in a text editor display?
What do you mean?
I mean exactly what I had written.
Post by Lewis
People can set their tab stops in text editors to whatever they
want. Coders tend to use 3 or 4, but I have seen 6 often enough.
Mail and News clients expect an 8-position tab by convention. If someone
is aware of the convention yet changes his display to something else,
that's not an argument to the author not to use tab stops.
Post by Lewis
Post by Adam H. Kerman
. . .
Lewis
2021-08-13 00:54:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Adam H. Kerman
Post by Lewis
Post by Adam H. Kerman
Post by VanguardLH
What is all this text-mode editing that Dialog's own compose window
won't handle? Doesn't sound like your doing HTML, but just text.
Better be careful when aligning text in a text-only compose window. Tab
on one computer could be 4 space characters while on another computer
could be 8 space characters, so someone reading your article may not see
the alignment you selected, and line-wrap could screw it all up.
What is an example of using a 4 space tab by default in lieu of 8 spaces
in a text editor display?
What do you mean?
I mean exactly what I had written.
What you wrote doesn't make sense.
Post by Adam H. Kerman
Post by Lewis
People can set their tab stops in text editors to whatever they
want. Coders tend to use 3 or 4, but I have seen 6 often enough.
Mail and News clients expect an 8-position tab by convention.
According to whom?
Post by Adam H. Kerman
If someone is aware of the convention yet changes his display to
something else, that's not an argument to the author not to use tab
stops.
I don't think I have ever seen anything set to 8 spaces for a tab since
the days of typewriters, which were not used for mail or newsgroup
clients.
--
Clicked "Debug" button. Program still has bugs. Wtf? - Rich Seigel
Quinn C
2021-08-12 23:39:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lewis
Post by Adam H. Kerman
Post by VanguardLH
What is all this text-mode editing that Dialog's own compose window
won't handle? Doesn't sound like your doing HTML, but just text.
Better be careful when aligning text in a text-only compose window. Tab
on one computer could be 4 space characters while on another computer
could be 8 space characters, so someone reading your article may not see
the alignment you selected, and line-wrap could screw it all up.
What is an example of using a 4 space tab by default in lieu of 8 spaces
in a text editor display?
What do you mean? People can set their tab stops in text editors to
whatever they want. Coders tend to use 3 or 4, but I have seen 6 often
enough.
Post by Adam H. Kerman
Sure, that can happen using a word processor.
Mo, word processors do not use spaces for tabs at all.
Post by Adam H. Kerman
Post by VanguardLH
I use spaces instead of tab: 2 space characters in my article is also 2
space characters seen by the user when reading my article in their client.
Well, you shouldn't substitute spaces for tabs because that's just
annoying.
I agree that using two spaces instead of a tab is annoying. However,
using 3 or 4 is common. In fact, in my primary editor I have it set so
that when I hit tab it inserts 3 spaces instead of a tab character. This
means regardless of what editor I open the file in, the text looks the
same, not the case if I use a tab character. I would say the minimum
acceptable is 3 and the maximum anyone should use is 6.
At my company, we don't use tabs in code, either (Java, so indent is for
readability by humans only). Our convention is to indent by four space
characters per level.

In the Ruby community, the conventional indent is two spaces. Nobody's
going to use tabs for that, I hope.
--
... English-speaking people have managed to get along a good many
centuries with the present supply of pronouns; ... It is so old and
venerable an argument ... it's equivalent was used when gas, railways
and steamboats were proposed. -- Findlay (OH) Jeffersonian (1875)
VanguardLH
2021-08-13 00:05:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Adam H. Kerman
What is an example of using a 4 space tab by default in lieu of 8 spaces
in a text editor display? Sure, that can happen using a word processor.
Spacing for a tab character is the purview of the client. The client
decides how wide to make a tab (which might equate to some number of
space characters, but not necessarily). You have no control over what
client the reader uses when reading your post.

Some clients let you specify how many space characters are used for the
width of a tab character. Could be 2 spaces, 4 spaces, 8 spaces, or
aligned to the left edge of the beginning of the preceding line.
Post by Adam H. Kerman
Well, you shouldn't substitute spaces for tabs because that's just
annoying. Someone might choose a variable-width font for display because
he finds it easier to read, and there are no tabs to line up.
I cannot control how a user configures their client regarding handling
of tabs. If they use variable fonts, NOTHING WILL LINE UP with tabular
data! If you select to view as plain-text, you should also be using a
monospaced font.
bill
2021-08-13 16:08:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by VanguardLH
What is all this text-mode editing that Dialog's own compose window
won't handle? Doesn't sound like your doing HTML, but just text.
1. I use Dialog's composition window about 1/2 the time for just text.
2. I use vim's composition window 1/4 of the time for detailed lists.
3. I use Notepad++ 1/4 of the time when I'm copying lots of HTML text.

To your point though, the Dialog composition window works 1/2 the time.
Dialog has one nice editing feature of [control][shift][o] that's nice!
Otherwise, it's a "normal" text editor with all the normal capabilities.

Hence there is nothing wrong with the Dialog's composition window for most
people. And, in fact, I use the Dialog composition window when I'm typing up
short non detailed not well cited off the cuff replies just like you would.

But I'm not at all like most people in some critically important ways.

I'm extremely detailed (as you are) in some of my Usenet posts (as are you).
I quote a helluva LOT of things. I include a lot of contextual details.

In fact, almost all my editing outside of 40Tude Dialog is done on vim since
I grew up on UNIX variants where "ed" and "vi" were the only editors you
knew would always be there (well before the days of "nano" & "emacs").

My persistent finger memory on vim commands impresses even my brain, at
times. :) I've lost my memory in all but my fingers it seems. :)
Post by VanguardLH
I just can't see why you need Notepad++ when all you need is a very
basic text editor for text-only messages composed in and sent by Dialog.
Maybe I missed that part. Seems a lot of work to throw a monster text
editor at a simple job; i.e., swatting a fly with a cannon.
The main problem that Notepad++ solves is inconsistent punctuation.
Notepad++ fixes inconsistent punctuation more easily than vim does.

When I cut and paste from a mix of sources, for example, the curly quote
stuff is inconsistent, and as you can tell by now, I deplore inconsistency.

In vim, this inconsistent punctuation shows up fine in some cases and as a
black square in others, but it's not as easily fixed in vim as in Notepad++.

Remember, I re-purpose existing macros, so I found an existing macro for
Notepad++ which works beautifully, which is mostly why it helps with Dialog.

In Notepad, with a quick keyboard combination I am able to fix all known
inconsistencies in punctuation (there are dozens I've found over time).

Some of these inconsistencies in web punctuation you barely even _see_ with
the naked eye (e.g., non zero width spaces) but I still care about them.

Each time I find a new punctuation inconsistency, I add it to the Notepad++
macro which makes the result more pleasing to the eye of the beholder.

That way YOU (the customer!) sees consistent punctuation including when non
zero breaking spaces and other web-fancy crap is used in the originals.

After having said that, I still can't be the first person to ever want a
newsreader to compose in my favorite editor (which would be vim, by the
way). Can I be?

Regards,
bill

I note this post was done entirely in Dialog because it wasn't detailed,
nor did it contain quotes from a variety of outside sources so it was short
and simple and hence it didn't _need_ the power of a full-fledged editor.

Regards,
bill
--
Why are pencils and communism so similar?
They both only work on paper!
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