Discussion:
What determines ORDER of newsreader related header lines?
(too old to reply)
R.Wieser
2021-04-03 10:53:35 UTC
Permalink
Helo all,

I'm curious what determines the order of the newsreader header lines.
Is there a rule for how the newreader related header order is determined?

Does that newsreader headers order change based on the nntp server setup?
Or is that newsreader headers order related only to the news client setup?

TIA.

Regards,
Rudy Wieser
Adam H. Kerman
2021-04-03 13:05:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by R.Wieser
I'm curious what determines the order of the newsreader header lines.
Is there a rule for how the newreader related header order is determined?
None of the RFCs describing Usenet article format specify an order among
headers. A header that MUST be present can appear anywhere among them.
Post by R.Wieser
Does that newsreader headers order change based on the nntp server setup?
Or is that newsreader headers order related only to the news client setup?
Either is possible.
Melzzzzz
2021-04-03 14:41:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by R.Wieser
Helo all,
I'm curious what determines the order of the newsreader header lines.
Is there a rule for how the newreader related header order is determined?
Does that newsreader headers order change based on the nntp server setup?
Or is that newsreader headers order related only to the news client setup?
I guess that you receive headers in order how server sends.
Post by R.Wieser
TIA.
Regards,
Rudy Wieser
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Lewis
2021-04-03 19:54:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by R.Wieser
Helo all,
I'm curious what determines the order of the newsreader header lines.
Is there a rule for how the newreader related header order is determined?
A newsreader can display any headers it wants, or not, in any order it
wants, in any style it wants.
Post by R.Wieser
Does that newsreader headers order change based on the nntp server setup?
That is entirely a decision for the author of the client software.
--
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Eli the Bearded
2021-04-04 03:54:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by R.Wieser
I'm curious what determines the order of the newsreader header lines.
Is there a rule for how the newreader related header order is determined?
There is no rule. News readers create posts with headers in some order,
and then news servers preserve that order, mostly. Some servers will
drop some headers and add some headers. Most headers added get added to
end of header list. Path: gets added and edited and always (in my
experience, but not because of some rule saying so) appears first.
Post by R.Wieser
Does that newsreader headers order change based on the nntp server setup?
Or is that newsreader headers order related only to the news client setup?
News readers might rearrange the headers before displaying them, too.

Here are the headers I'm sending out, and the order they appear, as I post this:

Message-ID: <eli$***@qaz.wtf>
Path: qz!not-for-mail
From: Eli the Bearded <*@eli.users.panix.com>
X-Liz: It's actually happened, the entire Internet is a massive game of Redcode
X-Motto: "Erosion of rights never seems to reverse itself." -- ***@panix
X-US-Congress: Moronic Fucks.
X-Attribution: EtB
Subject: Re: What determines ORDER of newsreader related header lines?
Newsgroups: news.software.readers
XFrom: is a real address
Summary:
References: <s49hfd$37a$***@gioia.aioe.org>
Sender:
Encrypted: double rot-13
User-Agent: Vectrex rn 2.1 (beta)
X-No-Archive:
Followup-To:
Distribution:
Organization: Some absurd concept
Keywords: headers

The blank ones will be dropped by my newsreader, the others should stay
in the same order, except I expect Message-ID: and Path: to switch
places.

Elijah
------
read headers and understand them
Ralph Fox
2021-04-04 07:23:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Eli the Bearded
Post by R.Wieser
I'm curious what determines the order of the newsreader header lines.
Is there a rule for how the newreader related header order is determined?
There is no rule. News readers create posts with headers in some order,
and then news servers preserve that order, mostly.
Your headers arrived here in a very different order to the order you
say you sent then out in. See comparison below. Order taken from
the raw article, not relying on how my newsreader might present them.
Post by Eli the Bearded
Some servers will
drop some headers and add some headers. Most headers added get added to
end of header list. Path: gets added and edited and always (in my
experience, but not because of some rule saying so) appears first.
Post by R.Wieser
Does that newsreader headers order change based on the nntp server setup?
Or is that newsreader headers order related only to the news client setup?
News readers might rearrange the headers before displaying them, too.
Path: qz!not-for-mail
X-Liz: It's actually happened, the entire Internet is a massive game of Redcode
X-US-Congress: Moronic Fucks.
X-Attribution: EtB
Subject: Re: What determines ORDER of newsreader related header lines?
Newsgroups: news.software.readers
XFrom: is a real address
Encrypted: double rot-13
User-Agent: Vectrex rn 2.1 (beta)
Organization: Some absurd concept
Keywords: headers
The blank ones will be dropped by my newsreader, the others should stay
in the same order, except I expect Message-ID: and Path: to switch
places.
Here a comparison between your stated order (above) and the order
in the raw article I retrieved from AIOE.

Your order Order received here
-------------------- --------------------
Message-ID: Path:
Path: From:
From: Newsgroups:
X-Liz: Subject:
X-Motto: Organization:
X-US-Congress: Message-ID:
X-Attribution: References:
Subject: Keywords:
Newsgroups: X-Liz:
XFrom: X-Motto:
References: X-US-Congress:
Encrypted: X-Attribution:
User-Agent: XFrom:
Organization: Encrypted:
Keywords: User-Agent:

The 'Summary', 'Sender', 'X-No-Archive', 'Followup-To', and 'Distribution'
headers were blank and were dropped before your article entered Usenet.
I have not counted them in the comparison.

Here are the actual headers from the raw article retrieved:

Path: aioe.org!goblin2!goblin3!goblin.stu.neva.ru!panix!qz!not-for-mail
From: Eli the Bearded <*@eli.users.panix.com>
Newsgroups: news.software.readers
Subject: Re: What determines ORDER of newsreader related header lines?
Date: Sun, 4 Apr 2021 03:54:19 +0000 (UTC)
Organization: Some absurd concept
Lines: 45
Message-ID: <eli$***@qaz.wtf>
References: <s49hfd$37a$***@gioia.aioe.org>
NNTP-Posting-Host: panix5.panix.com
X-Trace: reader1.panix.com 1617508459 21072 166.84.1.5 (4 Apr 2021 03:54:19 GMT)
X-Complaints-To: ***@panix.com
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 4 Apr 2021 03:54:19 +0000 (UTC)
Keywords: headers
X-Liz: It's actually happened, the entire Internet is a massive game of Redcode
X-Motto: "Erosion of rights never seems to reverse itself." -- ***@panix
X-US-Congress: Moronic Fucks.
X-Attribution: EtB
XFrom: is a real address
Encrypted: double rot-13
User-Agent: Vectrex rn 2.1 (beta)
--
Kind regards
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2021-04-06 15:02:14 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 4 Apr 2021 03:54:19 +0000 (UTC), LO AND BEHOLD; Eli the Bearded
<*@eli.users.panix.com> determined that the following was of great
importance and subsequently decided to freely share it with us in
<eli$***@qaz.wtf>:

โœก In news.software.readers, R.Wieser <***@not.available> wrote:
โœก โœก I'm curious what determines the order of the newsreader header lines. Is
โœก โœก there a rule for how the newreader related header order is determined?
โœก
โœก There is no rule. News readers create posts with headers in some order,
โœก and then news servers preserve that order, mostly. Some servers will
โœก drop some headers and add some headers. Most headers added get added to
โœก end of header list. Path: gets added and edited and always (in my
โœก experience, but not because of some rule saying so) appears first.
โœก
โœก โœก Does that newsreader headers order change based on the nntp server
โœก โœก setup? Or is that newsreader headers order related only to the news
โœก โœก client setup?
โœก
โœก News readers might rearrange the headers before displaying them, too.
โœก
โœก Here are the headers I'm sending out, and the order they appear, as I
โœก post this:
โœก
โœก Message-ID: <eli$***@qaz.wtf> Path: qz!not-for-mail
โœก From: Eli the Bearded <*@eli.users.panix.com> X-Liz: It's actually
โœก happened, the entire Internet is a massive game of Redcode X-Motto:
โœก "Erosion of rights never seems to reverse itself." -- ***@panix
โœก X-US-Congress: Moronic Fucks. X-Attribution: EtB Subject: Re:
โœก What determines ORDER of newsreader related header lines?
โœก Newsgroups: news.software.readers XFrom: is a real address
โœก Summary: References: <s49hfd$37a$***@gioia.aioe.org> Sender:
โœก Encrypted: double rot-13 User-Agent: Vectrex rn 2.1 (beta)
โœก X-No-Archive: Followup-To: Distribution: Organization: Some
โœก absurd concept Keywords: headers
โœก
โœก The blank ones will be dropped by my newsreader, the others should stay
โœก in the same order, except I expect Message-ID: and Path: to switch
โœก places.
โœก
โœก Elijah ------ read headers and understand them
โœก

this is all very interesting.

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One important distinction between islam and christianity, is both religions have historically used their "beliefs" as a means to control the ignorant Unwashed Masses, only Western civilization became educated enough to take that power away from the clergy. The muzzies like their citizens to remain dumb, brainwashed, and obedient. That's why the radical ones are nearly all from The Land That Time Forgot. They're still stuck back in the fourteenth century, and suffer from the delusional notion that they're going to drag the rest of the world back there with them. As I see it, there's only one solution to that problem, and it's the same one we use to rid ourselves of rats, cockroaches, and other vermin." - Checkmate said this psycho lunatic shit in <***@news.altopia.com>

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"What you see happening in Europe now... defiant muzzies openly proclaiming that they have no desire to "assimilate" or co-exist with Europeans, and stating that their objective is to turn all of Europe into a muzzie dominated region under sharia law, is the harbinger of what they have planned for the US. To what extent they'll be successful with that here can be debated, but should not be underestimated. I wish I could share your optimism in that regard, but I don't.

Terror attacks are only one page out of the muzzie play book. They serve more as a distraction. The real goal is occupation, and that's already well underway. They've got that frog pretty well boiled in Europe now, and they're getting bolder by the day. The longer the Europeans wait to do something about it, the harder it's going to be TO do anything about it. It may already be too late IMO. This is going to get real messy in a hurry." - Checkmate crying about some bullshit about muslims in europe that's he's convinced himself is true.

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"Pussy Willow has just proven that Trump's crackdown on previously unenforced immigration policies is working. We'll deal with the domestic terrorists as needed, but we don't need to be letting the muzzie terrorists get a foothold in our country too. One need only look at what they're doing in Europe right now to know we're doing the right thing by keeping them out, which is our right and our duty. - Checkmate (#1 pussy willow fan)

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Frank Slootweg
2021-04-04 15:21:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by R.Wieser
Helo all,
I'm curious what determines the order of the newsreader header lines.
Is there a rule for how the newreader related header order is determined?
Does that newsreader headers order change based on the nntp server setup?
Or is that newsreader headers order related only to the news client setup?
TIA.
After seeing your post in That Other Group, I think I can guess why
you're asking these questions.

What I suggest you do is:

- In your Sent folder: Check an example post: Which headers are there
and in which order.

- In your normal article viewer: Do the same for the same post.

This should tell you which headers are added/removed by your news
server, where - i.e. in which part of the headers - are they
added/removed and whether or not the order of the headers is changed.

Now you have a known-good reference.

Next take the forgery and do a line for line comparison of the header
lines with your know-good reference. Hopefully that will reveal a bit
more about the forgery/forger.

HTH.
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