slrn on Windows

[Andres Garza]

I need help setting up slrn on Windows.
I'm getting this message whenever I set "gmail.com" or "imap.gmail.com" as my hostname.

Loading slang\slrn.slslrn fatal error:
Unable to find a valid hostname for constructing your e-mail address.
You probably want to specify a hostname in your slrn.rc file.
Please see the "slrn reference manual" for full details.

What should I set it as?

[William Unruh]

Post by Andres Garza
I need help setting up slrn on Windows.
I'm getting this message whenever I set "gmail.com" or "imap.gmail.com" as my hostname.
Unable to find a valid hostname for constructing your e-mail address.
You probably want to specify a hostname in your slrn.rc file.
Please see the "slrn reference manual" for full details.
What should I set it as?

Please please please do NOT use google as you news source. It is badly
broken in that it inserts a blank line after every line it quotes, even
if those lines are blank. It makes any responses you sent unreadable.
Please use a decent newsource (eg eternalseptember.org or others)

(Note-- I understand that the above is a sidetrack from your actual question.)

[Andres Garza]

Post by William Unruh

Post by Andres Garza
I need help setting up slrn on Windows.
I'm getting this message whenever I set "gmail.com" or "imap.gmail.com" as my hostname.
Unable to find a valid hostname for constructing your e-mail address.
You probably want to specify a hostname in your slrn.rc file.
Please see the "slrn reference manual" for full details.
What should I set it as?

Please please please do NOT use google as you news source. It is badly
broken in that it inserts a blank line after every line it quotes, even
if those lines are blank. It makes any responses you sent unreadable.
Please use a decent newsource (eg eternalseptember.org or others)
(Note-- I understand that the above is a sidetrack from your actual question.)

I actually signed up for http://www.eternal-september.org/ before this as a backup plan, I added news.eternal-september.org as my hostename and entered my credentials but it still didn't work.

[Sn!pe]

Post by Andres Garza
I actually signed up for http://www.eternal-september.org/ before this as
a backup plan, I added news.eternal-september.org as my hostename and
entered my credentials but it still didn't work.

You can register an Eternal-September FQDN at:-

<http://www.eternal-september.org/userfunctions.php>

- although I'm not sure that this is the reason for your slrn problem.

[Dan C]

Post by Andres Garza
I need help setting up slrn on Windows.
I'm getting this message whenever I set "gmail.com" or "imap.gmail.com" as my hostname.

Why would you do something that stupid? Is your hostname actually
"gmail.com" or "imap.gmail.com". I highly doubt it. Those may be part
of your email address, or <god forbid> your news server, but they are NOT
your hostname.

Post by Andres Garza
Unable to find a valid hostname for constructing your e-mail address.
You probably want to specify a hostname in your slrn.rc file.
Please see the "slrn reference manual" for full details.
What should I set it as?

Did you do as the error message suggested? Have you read the reference
manual?

Sheesh.

[Whiskers]

I need help setting up slrn on Windows. I'm getting this message
whenever I set "gmail.com" or "imap.gmail.com" as my hostname.
Loading slang\slrn.slslrn fatal error: Unable to find a valid hostname
for constructing your e-mail address. You probably want to specify a
hostname in your slrn.rc file. Please see the "slrn reference manual"
for full details.
What should I set it as?

You haven't mentioned which version of Windows is involved, but the
'hostname' slrn is looking for is the name of the computer it is running
on. Unix and Linux systems (where slrn is most at home) normally have a
'fully qualified domain name' (FQDN) which looks rather like an internet
address - but which is only meaningful to other machines on the same
local network. This does not need to be an officially registered public
domain name, you can make up something for yourself; for example

teenager.bedroom.chaos

would probably be fine. A Unix or Linux system will automatically
create a local 'email address' for each user with an account on that
machine (such as ***@teenager.bedroom.chaos) which can be used for
sending that user local emails - eg from the system administrator or
other people on the same local area network. This is not necessarily
an email address that will actually be used for anything on a Windows
system, but Unix and Linux programs may still expect it to be there.

On your Windows computer, the place for setting the computer's hostname
is probably somewhere in the 'network' settings, which may need an
'administrator' login or password for you to change anything. The
'help' on your computer should tell you exactly what to do, or go to
Microsoft's web site for 'Support'.

Confusingly, this is nothing to do with the email address you want to
appear as the 'From' header in your usenet articles, which /is/ set in
your slrn.rc file using lines such as these

set username "beefeatingrobot"
set hostname "gmail.com"
set realname "Andres Garza"

If you want slrn to generate the Message-ID for you, put this in slrn.rc

set generate_message_id 1

and you'll get Message-IDs that end with @teenager.bedroom.chaos. You
can change that with another slrn.rc entry eg

posting_host "insert.another.FQDN.here"

(but make sure that this FQDN is one that you are entitled to use - some
news service providers can help you generate one).

There used to be a web site with good instructions for setting up slrn
in Windows, but it seems to have gone.

[Andres Garza]

Post by Whiskers

I need help setting up slrn on Windows. I'm getting this message
whenever I set "gmail.com" or "imap.gmail.com" as my hostname.
Loading slang\slrn.slslrn fatal error: Unable to find a valid hostname
for constructing your e-mail address. You probably want to specify a
hostname in your slrn.rc file. Please see the "slrn reference manual"
for full details.
What should I set it as?

You haven't mentioned which version of Windows is involved, but the
'hostname' slrn is looking for is the name of the computer it is running
on. Unix and Linux systems (where slrn is most at home) normally have a
'fully qualified domain name' (FQDN) which looks rather like an internet
address - but which is only meaningful to other machines on the same
local network. This does not need to be an officially registered public
domain name, you can make up something for yourself; for example
teenager.bedroom.chaos
would probably be fine. A Unix or Linux system will automatically
create a local 'email address' for each user with an account on that
sending that user local emails - eg from the system administrator or
other people on the same local area network. This is not necessarily
an email address that will actually be used for anything on a Windows
system, but Unix and Linux programs may still expect it to be there.
On your Windows computer, the place for setting the computer's hostname
is probably somewhere in the 'network' settings, which may need an
'administrator' login or password for you to change anything. The
'help' on your computer should tell you exactly what to do, or go to
Microsoft's web site for 'Support'.
Confusingly, this is nothing to do with the email address you want to
appear as the 'From' header in your usenet articles, which /is/ set in
your slrn.rc file using lines such as these
set username "beefeatingrobot"
set hostname "gmail.com"
set realname "Andres Garza"
If you want slrn to generate the Message-ID for you, put this in slrn.rc
set generate_message_id 1
can change that with another slrn.rc entry eg
posting_host "insert.another.FQDN.here"
(but make sure that this FQDN is one that you are entitled to use - some
news service providers can help you generate one).
There used to be a web site with good instructions for setting up slrn
in Windows, but it seems to have gone.
--
-- ^^^^^^^^^^
-- Whiskers
-- ~~~~~~~~~~

I'm running Windows 7 x64, and I saw something like this posted elsewhere but couldn't find anything else like it, thanks for explaining it more in depth than the last guy.
Is this the site that you're talking about?
http://andrews-corner.org/slrn-windows.html

[Mike Easter]

Andres Garza wrote:

You have *got* to stop using googlegroups to read and post to usenet.
Until you get slrn working, use something else which you are familiar with.

Post by Andres Garza
I'm running Windows 7 x64,

Windows 7 doesn't come with a news agent. The MS solution for mail
agent is Windows Live Mail, but the current v. of MLM is not
satisfactory for posting reply messages to usenet groups.

The easiest Win7 agent to install which is graphical for usenet until
you get slrn working is probably Thunderbird.

eternal-september doesn't have a set of explicit instructions for
setting up Tb, but you can use a combination of these instructions:

Server name: news.eternal-september.org
Port : 119 (NNTP)

+ the instructions and screenshots for NIN and Tb except adapted for e-s

http://news.individual.net/configuration/thunderbird-2.0.0.6-linux-en.php
Program configuration for Thunderbird

Post by Andres Garza
and I saw something like this posted elsewhere but couldn't find
anything else like it, thanks for explaining it more in depth than
the last guy.
Is this the site that you're talking about?
http://andrews-corner.org/slrn-windows.html

andrew's site is gone. He may bring it back with another name.

Here are some other slrn sites:

https://help.ubuntu.com/community/slrn
http://slrn.sourceforge.net/
http://slrn.sourceforge.net/docs/FIRST_STEPS.html

Here's a message from andrew posted in the Ub forums

http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=475246 HOWTO: Setup slrn

[andrew]

Post by Mike Easter
andrew's site is gone. He may bring it back with another name.

I still have the windows slrn page on my computer, no longer online
unfortunately. Love to gift it to anybody who was keen to keep working
on it...

Andrew

[unknown]

<PRE Style='White-Space: PRE !important; Font-Size: 18px !important;Font-Family: monospace !important;'> 
Andy, Why did you take your slrn page down ?

[tlvp]

... windows slrn page on my computer, no longer online
unfortunately. Love to gift it to anybody who was keen to keep working
on it...

You might inquire whether any of the folks who maintain comp.sys.3b1 or
comp.dcom.telecom would care to host it all on one of their repositories
for 3b1 or telecoms stuff. It'd be a shame to have it all just disappear.

Cheers, -- tlvp

[Whiskers]

[...]

Post by Andres Garza
I'm running Windows 7 x64, and I saw something like this posted
elsewhere but couldn't find anything else like it, thanks for
explaining it more in depth than the last guy. Is this the site that
you're talking about? http://andrews-corner.org/slrn-windows.html

That's the one; sadly no longer there, and not picked up by the 'wayback
machine' either.

There are some good newsreaders that might be easier to set up on your
Windows system, possibly invoking 'Windows XP mode' to do it.

Xnews <http://xnews.newsguy.com/> uses a scoring system very similar to
slrn's and has a minimalist GUI. I'm not sure if it's being actively
developed at present, but but it has an excellent reputation. (The
'latest test version' should be perfectly stable).

Claws Mail <http://www.claws-mail.org/> or Thunderbird
<http://www.mozilla.org/en-US/thunderbird> are more 'mainstream', and
both can handle usenet in addition to email.

Using one of the Windows newsreaders mentioned above would make your
posts more likely to be read by other people in this group - Google
isn't popular here, not least because it makes your replies very
difficult to read - so it may be worth setting one of them up with the
'eternal-september' news-server, while you persevere with getting slrn
working for you.

[Andres]

Whiskers <***@operamail.com> wrote in news:***@ID-107770.user.individual.net:
I'm on Xnews right now, I think I'll stick with it for my Windows partition
and use slrn on my Fedora partition instead. Thanks to everyone for all the
help.

[Whiskers]

Post by Andres
I'm on Xnews right now, I think I'll stick with it for my Windows
partition and use slrn on my Fedora partition instead. Thanks to
everyone for all the help.

Good choice :))

[unknown]

<PRE Style='White-Space: PRE !important; Font-Size: 18px !important;Font-Family: monospace !important;'> 
Whiskers replied to Andres, to wit:
// > I'm on Xnews right now, I think I'll stick with it for my Windows
// > partition and use slrn on my Fedora partition instead. Thanks to
// > everyone for all the help.
//
// Good choice :))

Xnews is a "good choice" for those who
(can't|won't) (read|write) (Unicode|HTML).

HTML is good because, with the &lt;PRE> tag,
you get a monospaced font ( for indenting ),
instead of the default (proportional) font.

As an added benefit, noobs can't read it.

[Sir Gregory Hall]

Post by unknown
Xnews is a "good choice" for those who
(can't|won't) (read|write) (Unicode|HTML).

XNews is also good in that it displays X-Face.

When are you going to code your home-rolled
client to it, too, can display X-Face?

Post by unknown
HTML is good because, with the &lt;PRE> tag,
you get a monospaced font ( for indenting ),
instead of the default (proportional) font.

More folks should use HTML on Usenet. Too bad
some of the free NSP admins work so hard to
keep Usenet in the Dark Ages!

Post by unknown
As an added benefit, noobs can't read it.

Fuck all the Google Groups Noobs. If the free
NSP admins really wanted to do something
positive for Usenet they would filter out
all Google Groups posts.

[Jesse]

Post by Sir Gregory Hall

Post by unknown
Xnews is a "good choice" for those who
(can't|won't) (read|write) (Unicode|HTML).

XNews is also good in that it displays X-Face.
When are you going to code your home-rolled
client to it, too, can display X-Face?

Post by unknown
HTML is good because, with the&lt;PRE> tag,
you get a monospaced font ( for indenting ),
instead of the default (proportional) font.

More folks should use HTML on Usenet. Too bad
some of the free NSP admins work so hard to
keep Usenet in the Dark Ages!

I don't really care one way or the other, but if its important to anyone
to be able to use HTML on USENET perhaps you all need to start working
on new/updated RFCs. Wait. None of you have the smarts to do that or
even contribute to the process.

Post by Sir Gregory Hall

Post by unknown
As an added benefit, noobs can't read it.

Fuck all the Google Groups Noobs. If the free
NSP admins really wanted to do something
positive for Usenet they would filter out
all Google Groups posts.

[chrisv]

Post by Jesse
I don't really care one way or the other, but if its important to anyone
to be able to use HTML on USENET perhaps you all need to start working
on new/updated RFCs. Wait. None of you have the smarts to do that or
even contribute to the process.

+1

[Snit]

Post by Jesse
I don't really care one way or the other, but if its important to anyone
to be able to use HTML on USENET perhaps you all need to start working
on new/updated RFCs. Wait. None of you have the smarts to do that or
even contribute to the process.

+1

It really comes down to him just being completely ignorant about Usenet.
--
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[unknown]

<PRE Style='White-Space: PRE !important; Font-Size: 18px !important;Font-Family: monospace !important;'> 

Post by Snit
It really comes down to him just being completely ignorant about Usenet.

Much as you are ignorant of web design but claim to be a professional.

I study Usenet clients/servers, it's my hobby.
23 years ago, 1991, I wrote my first newsreader.
Today's version:

http://Jeff-Relf.Me/X.CPP
Loading Image...
http://Jeff-Relf.Me/X.HTM

What does @shit have that compares, I ask.
What's wrong with the &lt;PRE> tag ( HTML ) ? !
Without it, your posts aren't monospaced, usually.

DirectX 11.1, on Windows 8,
in mindblowingly -fast- !

http://Jeff-Relf.Me/DirectX.CPP
Visual C++ 2013, is a small (one-file) example of how to:
-- Use DirectX 11.1, Direct2D 1.1, DirectWrite, and Direct3D.
-- Replace DirectDraw/GDI+, etc.
-- Draw to a back buffer at a high fps (frames per second).
-- Draw properly scaled/smoothed .JPG files, hardware accelerated.
-- Draw to/from/within bitmaps.
-- Discover if a font exists or not ("FindFamilyName()").
-- Discover if a glyph exists in a font ("HasCharacter()").
-- Discover the width/height of a glyph ("GlyphWH()").

Note: This code needs Windows 8 or later.
ScreenShot (4K/UHD): Loading Image...

[Sir Gregory Hall, Esq.]

On Fri, 18 Apr 2014 13:05:23 -0500, Jesse

Post by Jesse
I don't really care one way or the other, but if its important to anyone
to be able to use HTML on USENET perhaps you all need to start working
on new/updated RFCs. Wait. None of you have the smarts to do that or
even contribute to the process.

I think Jeff Relf could write a better version of the
RFCs than the incoherent mess that exists now.

[Michael Baeuerle]

Post by Sir Gregory Hall, Esq.

Post by Jesse
I don't really care one way or the other, but if its important to anyone
to be able to use HTML on USENET perhaps you all need to start working
on new/updated RFCs. Wait. None of you have the smarts to do that or
even contribute to the process.

I think Jeff Relf could write a better version of the
RFCs than the incoherent mess that exists now.

What is wrong with the current RFCs?

I think since RFC3676 you can write fixed width and flowed plain text
mixed together (completely without HTML).
Using this scheme you can default to non-proportional font (should be
the default anyway because it was the original way to display text)
and display only things that are really intended as flowed text with
a proportinal font.

And if you encode it right, there would be no mess on the screens of
people who can't decode it (compare this with HTML).

[Xpost reduced]


Micha

[unknown]

<PRE Style='White-Space: PRE !important; Font-Size: 18px !important;Font-Family: monospace !important;'> 
Micha, I see your flnews.
Loading Image...

I study Usenet clients/servers, it's my hobby.
23 years ago, 1991, I wrote my first newsreader.
Today's version: http://Jeff-Relf.Me/X.CPP
http://Jeff-Relf.Me/X.PNG http://Jeff-Relf.Me/X.HTM

Most people want a proportional font,
and, indeed that's what most newsreaders give them,
by default... same as email.

Usenet and email are -very- similar.
If you don't specify &lt;PRE> ( HTML ),
chances are, people will see a proportional font.

&lt;PRE> is one tag, 5 letters -- that's it, nothing else.
You don't need -any- other tags, no
"mess on the screens of people who can't decode it".

Those who (can't|won't) (read|write) (Unicode|HTML)
are illiterate, I think. I prefer the smarter ones.

[Snit]

Post by unknown
 
Micha, I see your flnews.
http://micha.freeshell.org/flnews/screenshots/flnews-0.5_german.png
I study Usenet clients/servers, it's my hobby.
23 years ago, 1991, I wrote my first newsreader.
Today's version: http://Jeff-Relf.Me/X.CPP
http://Jeff-Relf.Me/X.PNG http://Jeff-Relf.Me/X.HTM
Most people want a proportional font,
and, indeed that's what most newsreaders give them,
by default... same as email.
Usenet and email are -very- similar.
If you don't specify <PRE> ( HTML ),
chances are, people will see a proportional font.
<PRE> is one tag, 5 letters -- that's it, nothing else.
You don't need -any- other tags, no
"mess on the screens of people who can't decode it".
Those who (can't|won't) (read|write) (Unicode|HTML)
are illiterate, I think. I prefer the smarter ones.

I sincerely hope you someday understand how to use Usenet correctly.
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[Sn!pe]

[nonsense deleted]

Post by Snit

Post by unknown
Those who (can't|won't) (read|write) (Unicode|HTML)
are illiterate, I think. I prefer the smarter ones.

I sincerely hope you someday understand how to use Usenet correctly.

Don't hold your breath, Snit.

[Snit]

On 4/19/14, 10:46 AM, in article

Post by Sn!pe
[nonsense deleted]

Post by Snit

Post by unknown
Those who (can't|won't) (read|write) (Unicode|HTML)
are illiterate, I think. I prefer the smarter ones.

I sincerely hope you someday understand how to use Usenet correctly.

Don't hold your breath, Snit.

Of course not. :)
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* Win 8 / Word 2013: http://youtu.be/z8gUL2TCcV4
* Mavericks / Pages 5.1: http://youtu.be/D3BPWANQoIk

[benj]

Post by Snit

Post by unknown
Micha, I see your flnews.
http://micha.freeshell.org/flnews/screenshots/flnews-0.5_german.png
I study Usenet clients/servers, it's my hobby.
23 years ago, 1991, I wrote my first newsreader.
Today's version: http://Jeff-Relf.Me/X.CPP
http://Jeff-Relf.Me/X.PNG http://Jeff-Relf.Me/X.HTM
Most people want a proportional font,
and, indeed that's what most newsreaders give them,
by default... same as email.
Usenet and email are -very- similar.
If you don't specify <PRE> ( HTML ),
chances are, people will see a proportional font.
<PRE> is one tag, 5 letters -- that's it, nothing else.
You don't need -any- other tags, no
"mess on the screens of people who can't decode it".
Those who (can't|won't) (read|write) (Unicode|HTML)
are illiterate, I think. I prefer the smarter ones.

I sincerely hope you someday understand how to use Usenet correctly.

Not much chance of that. You can't learn much off a screen with dark red
font on a dark brown background in mom's basement "command center".

[benj]

Post by unknown
Micha, I see your flnews.
http://micha.freeshell.org/flnews/screenshots/flnews-0.5_german.png
I study Usenet clients/servers, it's my hobby.
23 years ago, 1991, I wrote my first newsreader.
Today's version: http://Jeff-Relf.Me/X.CPP
http://Jeff-Relf.Me/X.PNG http://Jeff-Relf.Me/X.HTM
Most people want a proportional font,
and, indeed that's what most newsreaders give them,
by default... same as email.
Usenet and email are -very- similar.
If you don't specify <PRE> ( HTML ),
chances are, people will see a proportional font.
<PRE> is one tag, 5 letters -- that's it, nothing else.
You don't need -any- other tags, no
"mess on the screens of people who can't decode it".
Those who (can't|won't) (read|write) (Unicode|HTML)
are illiterate, I think. I prefer the smarter ones.

Rolf you are still an idiot. Using a large font won't make you any
smarter nor does posting to USENET cure mental illness.

You are still a moron. Plonk.

[Sir Gregory Hall, Esq.]

Post by benj
Rolf you are still an idiot. Using a large font won't make you any
smarter nor does posting to USENET cure mental illness.
You are still a moron. Plonk.

So many small minds so afraid of progress,
clarity and concision.

[benj]

Post by Sir Gregory Hall, Esq.

Post by benj
Rolf you are still an idiot. Using a large font won't make you any
smarter nor does posting to USENET cure mental illness.
You are still a moron. Plonk.

So many small minds so afraid of progress,
clarity and concision.

Since your post isn't in some huge brown font I presume that means you
have included yourself among the small minds!

That is unless you can explain to us how using a gigantic brown font
adds to "clarity and concision" and is therefore "progressive"...

Wake up to the fact: USENET is DEAD! It's clowns like you an Rolf who
have killed it rather than being it's "Savior".

[Sir Gregory Hall, Esq.]

Post by benj

Post by Sir Gregory Hall, Esq.

Post by benj
Rolf you are still an idiot. Using a large font won't make you any
smarter nor does posting to USENET cure mental illness.
You are still a moron. Plonk.

So many small minds so afraid of progress,
clarity and concision.

Since your post isn't in some huge brown font I presume that means you
have included yourself among the small minds!

Neither was Relf's post viewed in my client as huge brown font.
Rather, it was displayed as Courier New 10pt Western because
I set my client to so display it.

Are you too stupid to configure your own client so what it displays
pleases you? Or do you just like to gripe and complain because you
are in denial as to what you see being YOUR responsibility and nobody
else's?

Post by benj
That is unless you can explain to us how using a gigantic brown font
adds to "clarity and concision" and is therefore "progressive"...

Folks ought to be allowed to use that which pleases them when it comes
to fonts. Likewise those who don't wish to see all the variations need
to have sufficient brain power to set up their client to reflect those
wishes. Perhaps you are too stupid to understand this simple concept?
Perhaps you are still suckling at your mommies teat?

Post by benj
Wake up to the fact: USENET is DEAD! It's clowns like you an Rolf who
have killed it rather than being it's "Savior".

Usenet is dying. It's dying because people like you don't wish to
discuss things. All you want to do is gripe and complain and deny
your own ineptitude which ineptitude is the primary factor when it
comes to causing subscribers to lose interest.

[Silver Slimer]

Post by Sir Gregory Hall, Esq.

Post by benj
Wake up to the fact: USENET is DEAD! It's clowns like you an Rolf who
have killed it rather than being it's "Savior".

Usenet is dying. It's dying because people like you don't wish to
discuss things. All you want to do is gripe and complain and deny
your own ineptitude which ineptitude is the primary factor when it
comes to causing subscribers to lose interest.

The fact that fewer and fewer internet service providers actually have
USENET servers and don't promote the protocol at all might have a lot to
do with it as well. Canada's biggest ISP has no USENET at all and only
provides read-only access through a different company to anyone
requesting it. Essentially, it's ignored but provided in a way where
people can't even post to newsgroups should they be inclined. You'd
think that web sites would help solve the problem by providing access
that way but only Google bothered to offer anything and even then in a
half-assed way.

Let's not blame the people for killing USENET, let's blame the
providers. Let's not forget that USENET is not moderated and that fact
alone might be a threat to the state which believes that free speech is
merely a theory and not a right.

[Snit]

Post by Silver Slimer

Post by Sir Gregory Hall, Esq.

Post by benj
Wake up to the fact: USENET is DEAD! It's clowns like you an Rolf who
have killed it rather than being it's "Savior".

Usenet is dying. It's dying because people like you don't wish to
discuss things. All you want to do is gripe and complain and deny
your own ineptitude which ineptitude is the primary factor when it
comes to causing subscribers to lose interest.

The fact that fewer and fewer internet service providers actually have
USENET servers and don't promote the protocol at all might have a lot to
do with it as well. Canada's biggest ISP has no USENET at all and only
provides read-only access through a different company to anyone
requesting it. Essentially, it's ignored but provided in a way where
people can't even post to newsgroups should they be inclined. You'd
think that web sites would help solve the problem by providing access
that way but only Google bothered to offer anything and even then in a
half-assed way.
Let's not blame the people for killing USENET, let's blame the
providers. Let's not forget that USENET is not moderated and that fact
alone might be a threat to the state which believes that free speech is
merely a theory and not a right.

Some of the providers have stopped offering it, in part, because of the
abusiveness of their users and them being tired of dealing with the
complaints. I had one ISP I contacted over someone harassing me tell me that
directly.
--
* Mint MATE: Trash, Panel, Menu: http://youtu.be/C0y74FIf7uE
* Mint KDE bugs or Easter eggs? http://youtu.be/CU-whJQvtfA
* Mint KDE working with folders: http://youtu.be/7C9nvniOoE0
* Mint KDE creating files: http://youtu.be/N7-fZJaJUv8
* Mint KDE help: http://youtu.be/3ikizUd3sa8
* Mint KDE general navigation: http://youtu.be/t9y14yZtQuI
* Mint / LibreOffice: http://youtu.be/USU9iqppfto
* Win 8 / Word 2013: http://youtu.be/z8gUL2TCcV4
* Mavericks / Pages 5.1: http://youtu.be/D3BPWANQoIk

[Hadron]

Post by Sir Gregory Hall, Esq.

Post by benj
Wake up to the fact: USENET is DEAD! It's clowns like you an Rolf who
have killed it rather than being it's "Savior".

Usenet is dying. It's dying because people like you don't wish to
discuss things. All you want to do is gripe and complain and deny
your own ineptitude which ineptitude is the primary factor when it
comes to causing subscribers to lose interest.

The fact that fewer and fewer internet service providers actually have USENET
servers and don't promote the protocol at all might have a lot to do with it as
well. Canada's biggest ISP has no USENET at all and only provides read-only
access through a different company to anyone requesting it. Essentially, it's
ignored but provided in a way where people can't even post to newsgroups should
they be inclined. You'd think that web sites would help solve the problem by
providing access that way but only Google bothered to offer anything and even
then in a half-assed way.

WTF?

ISPs dont need to "provide usenet".

Usenet is available from existing servers.

[flatfish+++]

Post by Hadron

Post by Sir Gregory Hall, Esq.

Post by benj
Wake up to the fact: USENET is DEAD! It's clowns like you an Rolf who
have killed it rather than being it's "Savior".

Usenet is dying. It's dying because people like you don't wish to
discuss things. All you want to do is gripe and complain and deny
your own ineptitude which ineptitude is the primary factor when it
comes to causing subscribers to lose interest.

The fact that fewer and fewer internet service providers actually have USENET
servers and don't promote the protocol at all might have a lot to do with it as
well. Canada's biggest ISP has no USENET at all and only provides read-only
access through a different company to anyone requesting it. Essentially, it's
ignored but provided in a way where people can't even post to newsgroups should
they be inclined. You'd think that web sites would help solve the problem by
providing access that way but only Google bothered to offer anything and even
then in a half-assed way.

WTF?
ISPs dont need to "provide usenet".
Usenet is available from existing servers.

Here in the USA, ISP originally provided unfiltered USNET access.
What happened though is most have gone to the "big 3" if you will and
provide only half assed support.

That's why people look elsewhere.

[Hadron]

Post by flatfish+++

Post by Hadron

Post by Sir Gregory Hall, Esq.

Post by benj
Wake up to the fact: USENET is DEAD! It's clowns like you an Rolf who
have killed it rather than being it's "Savior".

Usenet is dying. It's dying because people like you don't wish to
discuss things. All you want to do is gripe and complain and deny
your own ineptitude which ineptitude is the primary factor when it
comes to causing subscribers to lose interest.

The fact that fewer and fewer internet service providers actually have USENET
servers and don't promote the protocol at all might have a lot to do with it as
well. Canada's biggest ISP has no USENET at all and only provides read-only
access through a different company to anyone requesting it. Essentially, it's
ignored but provided in a way where people can't even post to newsgroups should
they be inclined. You'd think that web sites would help solve the problem by
providing access that way but only Google bothered to offer anything and even
then in a half-assed way.

WTF?
ISPs dont need to "provide usenet".
Usenet is available from existing servers.

Here in the USA, ISP originally provided unfiltered USNET access.
What happened though is most have gone to the "big 3" if you will and
provide only half assed support.
That's why people look elsewhere.

I dont get it. Why would you NEED your ISP to provide it? Just use a
free server from a third party. Or have I misread something here.

That aside yes of course usenet is reduced. Forums are the norm : far
more clients and just easier to use. Stackoverflow does it "right"
barring their over zealous admins who close anything they deem "wrong".

[Sn!pe]

Hadron <***@gmail.com> wrote:

[...]

Post by Hadron

Post by flatfish+++

Post by Hadron
ISPs dont need to "provide usenet".
Usenet is available from existing servers.

Here in the USA, ISP originally provided unfiltered USNET access.
What happened though is most have gone to the "big 3" if you will and
provide only half assed support.
That's why people look elsewhere.

I dont get it. Why would you NEED your ISP to provide it? Just use a
free server from a third party. Or have I misread something here.
That aside yes of course usenet is reduced. Forums are the norm : far
more clients and just easier to use. Stackoverflow does it "right"
barring their over zealous admins who close anything they deem "wrong".

^^^^ ^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^ ^^^ ^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^ ^^^^ ^^^^ "^^^^^"

There you have the fundamental argument for the retention of Usenet
and its distributed server architecture. Any discussion medium that
is reliant on only one server or one set of service admins is prone
to censorship.

[Hadron]

Post by Sn!pe
[...]

Post by Hadron

Post by flatfish+++

Post by Hadron
ISPs dont need to "provide usenet".
Usenet is available from existing servers.

Here in the USA, ISP originally provided unfiltered USNET access.
What happened though is most have gone to the "big 3" if you will and
provide only half assed support.
That's why people look elsewhere.

I dont get it. Why would you NEED your ISP to provide it? Just use a
free server from a third party. Or have I misread something here.
That aside yes of course usenet is reduced. Forums are the norm : far
more clients and just easier to use. Stackoverflow does it "right"
barring their over zealous admins who close anything they deem "wrong".

^^^^ ^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^ ^^^ ^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^ ^^^^ ^^^^ "^^^^^"
There you have the fundamental argument for the retention of Usenet
and its distributed server architecture. Any discussion medium that
is reliant on only one server or one set of service admins is prone
to censorship.

What are you talking about? Its nothing to do with the protocol or
"usenet v stackoverflow". That's a ridiculous and ignorant comparison.

More apt would be something like "ubuntuhelp.com" vs "***@stackoverflow".

As for "distributed server architecture" .. what on earth are you
babbling about. That has ZILCH to do with the content censorship.

Anything done on usenet can as easily be mimicked in forums with the
potential for much more audience, a far wider range of clients and the
potential for a far richer content (personally I wouldnt allow HTML
posting outside of basic hiliting and code blocks etc.).

[Sn!pe]

[auk added]

Post by Hadron

Post by Sn!pe
[...]

Post by Hadron

Post by flatfish+++

Post by Hadron
ISPs dont need to "provide usenet".
Usenet is available from existing servers.

Here in the USA, ISP originally provided unfiltered USNET access.
What happened though is most have gone to the "big 3" if you will and
provide only half assed support.
That's why people look elsewhere.

I dont get it. Why would you NEED your ISP to provide it? Just use a
free server from a third party. Or have I misread something here.
That aside yes of course usenet is reduced. Forums are the norm : far
more clients and just easier to use. Stackoverflow does it "right"
barring their over zealous admins who close anything they deem "wrong".

^^^^ ^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^ ^^^ ^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^ ^^^^ ^^^^ "^^^^^"
There you have the fundamental argument for the retention of Usenet
and its distributed server architecture. Any discussion medium that
is reliant on only one server or one set of service admins is prone
to censorship.

What are you talking about? Its nothing to do with the protocol or
"usenet v stackoverflow". That's a ridiculous and ignorant comparison.

Thank you for that vote of confidence. My point is that any discussion
hosted on only server can be curtailed at the whim of the server
operator. Similarly, the operator can ban any participant he chooses.

That is impossible on Usenet because newsgroups are hosted on a
distributed network of servers; this is fundamental to the basic design.
Remember the old adage "The Internet interprets censorship as damage
and routes around it"? That's about Usenet (among other protocols).

Any Usenet contributor banned from one newsserver needs only to find
another server in order to continue his participation in the very same
discussion. This is not possible when the discussion is hosted by just
one server operator. This is not rocket science!

Post by Hadron
As for "distributed server architecture" .. what on earth are you
babbling about. That has ZILCH to do with the content censorship.

It /is/ to do with censorship. It's precisely about censorship and the
fact that censorship of Usenet is practically impossible.

Post by Hadron
Anything done on usenet can as easily be mimicked in forums with the
potential for much more audience, a far wider range of clients and the
potential for a far richer content (personally I wouldnt allow HTML
posting outside of basic hiliting and code blocks etc.).

Incorrect.

[Silver Slimer, Montreal Computer Guy]

Post by Hadron

Post by Sir Gregory Hall, Esq.

Post by benj
Wake up to the fact: USENET is DEAD! It's clowns like you an Rolf who
have killed it rather than being it's "Savior".

Usenet is dying. It's dying because people like you don't wish to
discuss things. All you want to do is gripe and complain and deny
your own ineptitude which ineptitude is the primary factor when it
comes to causing subscribers to lose interest.

The fact that fewer and fewer internet service providers actually have USENET
servers and don't promote the protocol at all might have a lot to do with it as
well. Canada's biggest ISP has no USENET at all and only provides read-only
access through a different company to anyone requesting it. Essentially, it's
ignored but provided in a way where people can't even post to newsgroups should
they be inclined. You'd think that web sites would help solve the problem by
providing access that way but only Google bothered to offer anything and even
then in a half-assed way.

WTF?
ISPs dont need to "provide usenet".
Usenet is available from existing servers.

ISPs generally offered access to an ISP-specific server. In this case,
the biggest Canadian ISP would be Bell and they don't offer anything but
read-only access from newshosting I believe. In general, ISPs are
dismantling their USENET server which wasn't very good to begin with and
offering people no substitute.

[Paul]

Post by Silver Slimer, Montreal Computer Guy

Post by Hadron

Post by Sir Gregory Hall, Esq.

Post by benj
Wake up to the fact: USENET is DEAD! It's clowns like you an Rolf who
have killed it rather than being it's "Savior".

Usenet is dying. It's dying because people like you don't wish to
discuss things. All you want to do is gripe and complain and deny
your own ineptitude which ineptitude is the primary factor when it
comes to causing subscribers to lose interest.

The fact that fewer and fewer internet service providers actually have USENET
servers and don't promote the protocol at all might have a lot to do with it as
well. Canada's biggest ISP has no USENET at all and only provides read-only
access through a different company to anyone requesting it.
Essentially, it's
ignored but provided in a way where people can't even post to newsgroups should
they be inclined. You'd think that web sites would help solve the problem by
providing access that way but only Google bothered to offer anything and even
then in a half-assed way.

WTF?
ISPs dont need to "provide usenet".
Usenet is available from existing servers.

ISPs generally offered access to an ISP-specific server. In this case,
the biggest Canadian ISP would be Bell and they don't offer anything but
read-only access from newshosting I believe. In general, ISPs are
dismantling their USENET server which wasn't very good to begin with and
offering people no substitute.

Bell Sympatico used to run their own news servers. First they
shut the one down in Ontario. And for a few weeks, I could use
the Eastern one which was still running. Then that one was closed.

"As of May 25, 2006 The Sympatico USENET host will not be active.
If you try to access the Sympatico USENET address, you will be
automatically redirected you to the NewsHosting site."

And this predates the Cuomo witch hunt in the States. The USENET
servers were shut down, as they were a "cost center" and not
considered a feature as such.

(June 10, 2008)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_Cuomo#Usenet

So two forces were at work at the same time. The thinking that
having USENET wasn't a feature, so even if it took one full
time person to TOS people, that was too much cost. And on the
other hand, doing the right thing for the RIAA/MPAA and the
binary groups, by just closing the server. Think of all the
download bytes saved, for the ISP. Even if it is all on their
own network.

Paul

[Lloyd E Parsons]

Post by Paul

Post by Silver Slimer, Montreal Computer Guy

Post by Hadron

Post by Sir Gregory Hall, Esq.

Post by benj
Wake up to the fact: USENET is DEAD! It's clowns like you an Rolf who
have killed it rather than being it's "Savior".

Usenet is dying. It's dying because people like you don't wish to
discuss things. All you want to do is gripe and complain and deny
your own ineptitude which ineptitude is the primary factor when it
comes to causing subscribers to lose interest.

The fact that fewer and fewer internet service providers actually have USENET
servers and don't promote the protocol at all might have a lot to do with it as
well. Canada's biggest ISP has no USENET at all and only provides read-only
access through a different company to anyone requesting it. Essentially, it's
ignored but provided in a way where people can't even post to newsgroups should
they be inclined. You'd think that web sites would help solve the problem by
providing access that way but only Google bothered to offer anything and even
then in a half-assed way.

WTF?
ISPs dont need to "provide usenet".
Usenet is available from existing servers.

ISPs generally offered access to an ISP-specific server. In this case,
the biggest Canadian ISP would be Bell and they don't offer anything
but read-only access from newshosting I believe. In general, ISPs are
dismantling their USENET server which wasn't very good to begin with
and offering people no substitute.

Bell Sympatico used to run their own news servers. First they
shut the one down in Ontario. And for a few weeks, I could use
the Eastern one which was still running. Then that one was closed.
"As of May 25, 2006 The Sympatico USENET host will not be active.
If you try to access the Sympatico USENET address, you will be
automatically redirected you to the NewsHosting site."
And this predates the Cuomo witch hunt in the States. The USENET
servers were shut down, as they were a "cost center" and not
considered a feature as such.
(June 10, 2008)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_Cuomo#Usenet
So two forces were at work at the same time. The thinking that
having USENET wasn't a feature, so even if it took one full
time person to TOS people, that was too much cost. And on the
other hand, doing the right thing for the RIAA/MPAA and the
binary groups, by just closing the server. Think of all the
download bytes saved, for the ISP. Even if it is all on their
own network.
Paul

I remember quite a number of years ago when my ISP had a usenet service
and it went down for almost a week. I was on vacation during most of
the time that occurred so hadn't noticed it until I came back home.
Called the ISP and they said I was the 2nd person to call about it
during that whole time.

[Silver Slimer, Montreal Computer Guy]

Post by Paul

Post by Silver Slimer, Montreal Computer Guy

Post by Hadron
WTF?
ISPs dont need to "provide usenet".
Usenet is available from existing servers.

ISPs generally offered access to an ISP-specific server. In this case,
the biggest Canadian ISP would be Bell and they don't offer anything
but read-only access from newshosting I believe. In general, ISPs are
dismantling their USENET server which wasn't very good to begin with
and offering people no substitute.

Bell Sympatico used to run their own news servers. First they
shut the one down in Ontario. And for a few weeks, I could use
the Eastern one which was still running. Then that one was closed.
"As of May 25, 2006 The Sympatico USENET host will not be active.
If you try to access the Sympatico USENET address, you will be
automatically redirected you to the NewsHosting site."
And this predates the Cuomo witch hunt in the States. The USENET
servers were shut down, as they were a "cost center" and not
considered a feature as such.
(June 10, 2008)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_Cuomo#Usenet
So two forces were at work at the same time. The thinking that
having USENET wasn't a feature, so even if it took one full
time person to TOS people, that was too much cost. And on the
other hand, doing the right thing for the RIAA/MPAA and the
binary groups, by just closing the server. Think of all the
download bytes saved, for the ISP. Even if it is all on their
own network.

I used to work for Sympatico but left before they made such a move. Had
I still been a part of the company, I probably would have rallied to
save USENET and done everything in my power to explain why it is
important for them to keep it. Alas, I had been gone for three years by
then.

However, I doubt that the servers was killed as a result of people
downloading binaries. Even then, it was clear that it was next to
impossible to download programs from the newsgroup server as it dropped
way too many posts. The same way they do today, people bought access to
commercial servers if binary downloads were important. At best, ISP
servers are used ONLY to post and read text.

[Paul]

Post by Silver Slimer, Montreal Computer Guy
I used to work for Sympatico but left before they made such a move. Had
I still been a part of the company, I probably would have rallied to
save USENET and done everything in my power to explain why it is
important for them to keep it. Alas, I had been gone for three years by
then.
However, I doubt that the servers was killed as a result of people
downloading binaries. Even then, it was clear that it was next to
impossible to download programs from the newsgroup server as it dropped
way too many posts. The same way they do today, people bought access to
commercial servers if binary downloads were important. At best, ISP
servers are used ONLY to post and read text.

The people who upload and download binaries, already have
a protocol to solve the "completion problem". And since
I don't do binaries, don't collect movies, I don't know
any of the details.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usenet_newsgroup

"There are two main issues that pose problems for transmitting
binary files over newsgroups. The first is completion rates
and the other is retention rates.
...
To work around the problem, a redundancy scheme known as
PAR is commonly used."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parchive

And I think there's more to it than that. There's
a lot I've been missing out on.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nzb

You can expect an ecosystem like that to be highly automated.
It wouldn't be much fun if people were still manually
requesting missing bits and pieces of movies.

As for what punches holes in movies, there are always
cancelbots. Things go missing for a reason. It's not
like "bad server hardware" is being used, and your
post got lost.

Paul

[Dr. Jai Maharaj]

Post by Sir Gregory Hall, Esq.

Post by benj

Post by Sir Gregory Hall, Esq.

Post by benj
Rolf you are still an idiot. Using a large font won't make you any
smarter nor does posting to USENET cure mental illness.
You are still a moron. Plonk.

So many small minds so afraid of progress,
clarity and concision.

Since your post isn't in some huge brown font I presume that means you
have included yourself among the small minds!

Neither was Relf's post viewed in my client as huge brown font.
Rather, it was displayed as Courier New 10pt Western because
I set my client to so display it.
Are you too stupid to configure your own client so what it displays
pleases you? Or do you just like to gripe and complain because you
are in denial as to what you see being YOUR responsibility and nobody
else's?

Post by benj
That is unless you can explain to us how using a gigantic brown font
adds to "clarity and concision" and is therefore "progressive"...

Folks ought to be allowed to use that which pleases them when it comes
to fonts. Likewise those who don't wish to see all the variations need
to have sufficient brain power to set up their client to reflect those
wishes. Perhaps you are too stupid to understand this simple concept?
Perhaps you are still suckling at your mommies teat?

Post by benj
Wake up to the fact: USENET is DEAD! It's clowns like you an Rolf who
have killed it rather than being it's "Savior".

Usenet is dying. It's dying because people like you don't wish to
discuss things. All you want to do is gripe and complain and deny
your own ineptitude which ineptitude is the primary factor when it
comes to causing subscribers to lose interest.

The text side of USENET may be dying but the other where
pictures, videos and software are posted isn't.

Jai Maharaj, Jyotishi
Om Shanti
http://tinyurl.com/JaiMaharaj

[unknown]

<PRE Style='White-Space: PRE !important; Font-Size: 18px !important;Font-Family: monospace !important;'> 
jai, Greg, and Ben,

Forget downloads, Usenet -grows- by 16 TeraBytes each day.

Many have tried to kill it, or declare it dead.

How much more wrong could these idiots be ? !

[Sir Gregory Hall, Esq.]

Post by unknown
jai, Greg, and Ben,
Forget downloads, Usenet -grows- by 16 TeraBytes each day.

I beg your pardon, Jeff, but that sounds like a classic
erroneous supposition.

Got proof?

[unknown]

<PRE Style='White-Space: PRE !important; Font-Size: 18px !important;Font-Family: monospace !important;'> 
Greg, You say "Usenet is dead"...
I don't care, Usenet remains,
you can't kill it, no one can.

I lot of people eat at McDonalds,
that doesn't mean McDonalds is thee best restaurant.

Likewise, the number of people on Usenet
is less important than -who- is on Usenet.

Usenet -grows- by 16+ TeraBytes each day.
The decades-long trend is exponential; see:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usenet#Usenet_traffic_changes

That's the -daily growth-, retained uploads,
-- not downloads, not the total size.

And you call that an "erroneous supposition" ? !
Could you possibly be more wrong, if you tried ? !

What do you know about Usenet, anyway ? !
You use F-Agent, for Christ's sake.

You steal WiFi, when you can, you're so poor.
Jesse doesn't do that, please note.
Who do you think I respect more ? !

[Dr. Jai Maharaj]

In article

Post by unknown
<PRE Style='White-Space: PRE !important; Font-Size: 18px
!important;Font-Family: monospace !important;'> 
Greg, You say "Usenet is dead"...
I don't care, Usenet remains,
you can't kill it, no one can.
I lot of people eat at McDonalds,
that doesn't mean McDonalds is thee best restaurant.
Likewise, the number of people on Usenet
is less important than -who- is on Usenet.
Usenet -grows- by 16+ TeraBytes each day.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usenet#Usenet_traffic_changes
That's the -daily growth-, retained uploads,
-- not downloads, not the total size.
And you call that an "erroneous supposition" ? !
Could you possibly be more wrong, if you tried ? !
What do you know about Usenet, anyway ? !
You use F-Agent, for Christ's sake.
You steal WiFi, when you can, you're so poor.
Jesse doesn't do that, please note.
Who do you think I respect more ? !

Usenet traffic changes

Over time, the amount of Usenet traffic has steadily
increased. As of 2010 the number of all text posts made
in all Big-8 newsgroups averaged 1,800 new messages every
hour, with an average of 25,000 messages per day.[47]
However, these averages are minuscule in comparison to
the traffic in the binary groups.[48] Much of this
traffic increase reflects not an increase in discrete
users or newsgroup discussions, but instead the
combination of massive automated spamming and an increase
in the use of .binaries newsgroups[47] in which large
files are often posted publicly. . . .

[...]

Continues at:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usenet#Usenet_traffic_changes

Jai Maharaj, Jyotishi
Om Shanti

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.fan.jai-maharaj

[unknown]

<PRE Style='White-Space: PRE !important; Font-Size: 18px !important;Font-Family: monospace !important;'> 
@jai, Usenet's decades-long exponential growth,
now 16 TeraBytes/day, tells me: you can -not- kill it.

Four years ago, the "Big-8" newsgroups had
25,000 text messages per day. So what ? !
McDonald's has served hundreds of billions.

Usenet is about -who- is here, not how often they post.
I filter out 99% if it. Fewer posts would be welcome.

A 4K/UHD ScreenShot of <A hRef="Loading Image..."
target=_blank>"Comp.OS.Linux.Advocacy" Regulars, ranked</A> [ <A hRef="http://Jeff-Relf.Me/Cola_Regs.HTM" target=_blank>Text</A> ].

[Sir Gregory Hall, Esq.]

Post by unknown
That's the -daily growth-, retained uploads,
-- not downloads, not the total size.
And you call that an "erroneous supposition" ? !
Could you possibly be more wrong, if you tried ? !

LOL! Jeff you're a hoot and no mistake.

Perhaps an analogy is in order. There exists
a very large manure pile. Ten years ago there
was a daily addition to the manure pile of
20 pitchfork's full. Five years ago there
was a daily addition to the manure pile of
10 pitchfork's full. Two years ago there
was a daily addition to the manure pile of
five pitchfork's full. Today there is only
an addition of two pitchfork's full.

Now, a manure pile rots and composts from
the bottom up and what occurs is that the
pile is actually shrinking with the addition
of only two pitchfork's full a day whereas
there was real growth with that ten years
ago, 20 pitchfork's full daily.

Usenet is that manure pile. Even if the
pile is *growing* because it doesn't rot
from the bottom like the manure pile it
is, in effect, dying because ten years
ago there were 20 times more meaningful
posts and 20 times more active groups than
today's paltry number.

That's why it can be truthfully said that
Usenet is dying. If you really think that
Usenet is a storage house for a festering
manure pile of binaries then you're sadly
mistaken.

[Dr. Jai Maharaj]

Post by unknown
<PRE Style='White-Space: PRE !important; Font-Size: 18px
!important;Font-Family: monospace !important;'> 
jai, Greg, and Ben,
Forget downloads, Usenet -grows- by 16 TeraBytes each day.
Many have tried to kill it, or declare it dead.
How much more wrong could these idiots be ? !

USENET has expired for many folks, especially those who
are active on Facebook and Twitter. For many others it
isn't dead.

Jai Maharaj, Jyotishi
Om Shanti

http://goo.gl/XQJY7a

[Michael Baeuerle]

Post by unknown
[...]
Most people want a proportional font,

Your opinion. I have never used a proportional font for Mail and News
because of ASCII art, electronic circuit schematics, etc. that people
send me or post to USENET groups I read.

Post by unknown
and, indeed that's what most newsreaders give them,
by default... same as email.

If many people like it, they can use it. Nobody else will care
because it is only their local representation. IMHO it is one of the
biggest advantages of sending plain text that every user can
configure its client individually.

Post by unknown
Usenet and email are -very- similar.
If you don't specify &lt;PRE> ( HTML ),
chances are, people will see a proportional font.

I think this is fully acceptable. They have configured their clients
this was, so they should get what they want to see.

Post by unknown
&lt;PRE> is one tag, 5 letters -- that's it, nothing else.
You don't need -any- other tags,

You need at least one other tag, the "Content-Type" header field, to
indicate "text/html" instead of "text/plain" (the default).

Post by unknown
no "mess on the screens of people who can't decode it".

I see this on my screen when I read your postings (because flnews
has no HTML decoder):
|
| <PRE Style='White-Space: PRE !important; Font-Size: 18px !important;Font-Family: monospace !important;'>

This is fully legal. RFC2049 specify it like this:
|
| [handling of media type "text"]
| For unrecognized subtypes in a known character set, show or offer
| to show the user the "raw" version of the data [...]

Post by unknown
Those who (can't|won't) (read|write) (Unicode|HTML)
are illiterate, I think. I prefer the smarter ones.

Unicode and HTML are totally unrelated. You can use Unicode without
HTML by declaring the corresponding character set in the
"Content-Type" header like this: €€€

Unicode is no problem, HTML may be a problem and is not needed for
USENET (creates more problems than it solves). One of these problems
is the canonical quoting character ">" that is used by HTML as tag
closing mark.

[Xpost reduced again]


Micha

[unknown]

Micha, Yes, you can replace the monospaced font
of the <PRE> tag with a proportional font;
but that'd be stoooopid, -not-, "fully acceptable".

HTML lets you mix monospaced and proportional fonts.

"Content-Type: Text/HTML; charset=UTF-8" is
"a line in the header" of a post or email, -not- an HTML tag.

All you need is -one- tag, the <PRE> tag;
you don't need the -huge- mass of tags others use.

HTML renderers print ">>>" ( with no "<Tag" preceeding it )
as plain text.

XML parsers flag ">>>" as an error.
In XML, you must convert it to "&gt;&gt;&gt;".

Many people confuse XML with HTML,
including people here, on Usenet,
and those "HTML validators".

[Snit]

Post by unknown
Micha, Yes, you can replace the monospaced font
of the <PRE> tag with a proportional font;
but that'd be stoooopid, -not-, "fully acceptable".
HTML lets you mix monospaced and proportional fonts.
"Content-Type: Text/HTML; charset=UTF-8" is
"a line in the header" of a post or email, -not- an HTML tag.
All you need is -one- tag, the <PRE> tag;
you don't need the -huge- mass of tags others use.
HTML renderers print ">>>" ( with no "<Tag" preceeding it )
as plain text.
XML parsers flag ">>>" as an error.
Many people confuse XML with HTML,
including people here, on Usenet,
and those "HTML validators".

The whole concept of a text based Usenet forum is still confusing to you.
Amazing.
--
* Mint MATE: Trash, Panel, Menu: http://youtu.be/C0y74FIf7uE
* Mint KDE bugs or Easter eggs? http://youtu.be/CU-whJQvtfA
* Mint KDE working with folders: http://youtu.be/7C9nvniOoE0
* Mint KDE creating files: http://youtu.be/N7-fZJaJUv8
* Mint KDE help: http://youtu.be/3ikizUd3sa8
* Mint KDE general navigation: http://youtu.be/t9y14yZtQuI
* Mint / LibreOffice: http://youtu.be/USU9iqppfto
* Win 8 / Word 2013: http://youtu.be/z8gUL2TCcV4
* Mavericks / Pages 5.1: http://youtu.be/D3BPWANQoIk

[Hadron]

Post by unknown
Micha, Yes, you can replace the monospaced font
of the <PRE> tag with a proportional font;
but that'd be stoooopid, -not-, "fully acceptable".
HTML lets you mix monospaced and proportional fonts.

Seriously, are you an idiot?

You think this is news?

Post by unknown
"Content-Type: Text/HTML; charset=UTF-8" is
"a line in the header" of a post or email, -not- an HTML tag.
All you need is -one- tag, the <PRE> tag;
you don't need the -huge- mass of tags others use.
HTML renderers print ">>>" ( with no "<Tag" preceeding it )
as plain text.
XML parsers flag ">>>" as an error.
Many people confuse XML with HTML,
including people here, on Usenet,
and those "HTML validators".

LOL. You make things up as you go along.

[Steve Crook]

["Followup-To:" header set to alt.free.newsservers.]
On Tue, 22 Apr 2014 10:46:33 -0700 (Seattle), Jeff-Relf.Me wrote in

Post by unknown
HTML lets you mix monospaced and proportional fonts.

If Einstein had been aware of this when he documented his special theory
of relativity, we might have been time travelling by now.

[Michael Baeuerle]

Post by unknown
Micha, Yes, you can replace the monospaced font
of the <PRE> tag with a proportional font;
but that'd be stoooopid, -not-, "fully acceptable".

I had not the <pre> tag in mind (remember that I am against HTML
usage in USENET). If one declare the content as "text/plain", the
default should already be a monospaced font. The reasons are the
roots of USENET on monospaced text terminals and the existing
standard of a format for flowed plain text (RFC3676).

In other words:
It makes no sense to use a proportional font for fixed width text, it
only makes sense for flowed text. I know that some people use
different settings nevertheless and even that some newsreaders
defaults to them - but it's the right of them to do so (and their
problem to deal with the drawbacks in my opinion).

Post by unknown
HTML lets you mix monospaced and proportional fonts.

With the flowed plain text format you can mix fixed width and flowed
paragraphs too (and the client software can use different fonts for
them).

Post by unknown
"Content-Type: Text/HTML; charset=UTF-8" is
"a line in the header" of a post or email, -not- an HTML tag.

Sorry, I have used misleading words. The message should be that the
<pre> tag interpretation must be first enabled with this header
field because the default content type is "text/plain".

Post by unknown
All you need is -one- tag, the <PRE> tag;
you don't need the -huge- mass of tags others use.

Assuming that software authors don't write their own decoders for
HTML (and use web browser engines for rendering instead) will open
the box of Pandora.
You will be the first and the last one who use it with a single tag.
Bad guys will use the HTML features to spam and fool. And they will
try to exploit bugs in client software the same way as in the WWW
for "drive by" infections with malware.

We really don't want this. The usage of plain text is one of the
advantages of USENET, not a missing feature!

Post by unknown
HTML renderers print ">>>" ( with no "<Tag" preceeding it )
as plain text.

Yes, they should be printed if they stand alone. But if you cite
e.g. a paragraph containing a math formula like a<b
things may become a diffent meaning if there are intermediate
plain text citations.

I really can't see the justification for HTML if it should only
serve the purpose of displaying preformatted text.
You can use Unicode and flowed text without HTML simply by using
the MIME standards. And most likely even more of todays USENET
client software will correctly display MIME compared to HTML.

[Xpost reduced again]
This topic really don't have something to do with Linux or physics.


Micha

[unknown]

Micha, In practice, in the -real- world,
flowed text and a proportional font are the default.

When you post HTML, "a<b" becomes "a&lt;b".
Mainstream email/Usenet clients ( e.g. Thunderbird )
handle the encoding/decoding.

Today's email/Usenet clients don't allow "drive by infections";
"no images" is the default setting.

Those who post ridiculous HTML will soon be filtered out.
One tag, the <PRE> tag, is -not- ridiculous.

Note, the following (monospace) text contrains
a plain text table that should -not- be wrapped.

※△◯♜♝♞ ╳oO.0 ╱╲╲╱⋀⋁ ＜＞⦅⦆«»❮❯➤⌃＋⁺⁻゠＝＆¦⎮⋅✼●°○Θ.⦿◆▲▼
⋅⋅XX⋅⋅XX⋅⋅XX⋅⋅XX⋅XX⋅XX⋅⋅XX
391 Α α Alpha, Β β Beta, Γ γ Gamma, Δ δ Delta, Ε ε Epsilon,
Ζ ζ Zeta, Η η Eta, Θ θ Theta, Ι ι Iota, Κ κ Kappa, Λ λ Lambda,
Μ μ Mu, Ν ν Nu, Ξ ξ Xi, Ο ο Omicron, Π π Pi, Ρ ρ Rho, Σ σ ς Sigma,
Τ τ Tau, Υ υ Upsilon, Φ φ Phi, Χ χ Chi, Ψ ψ Psi, Ω ω Omega
410 АБВГДЕЖЗИЙКЛМНОПРСТУФХЦЧШЩЪЫЬЭЮЯ абвгдежзийклмнопрстуфхцчшщъыьэюя
123456789.123456789.123456789.123456789.123456789.123456789.123456789.123456789.123456789.123456789.123456789.123456789.123456789.123456789.123456789.123456789.
.........10........20........30........40........50........60........70........80........90........100.......110.......120.......130.......140.......150.......160
32 ₓ20 64 ₓ40 @ 96 ₓ60 ` 128 ₓ80|20ac € 160 ₓa0   192 ₓc0 À 224 ₓe0 à
33 ₓ21 ! 65 ₓ41 A 97 ₓ61 a 129 ₓ81| 81  161 ₓa1 ¡ 193 ₓc1 Á 225 ₓe1 á
34 ₓ22 " 66 ₓ42 B 98 ₓ62 b 130 ₓ82|201a ‚ 162 ₓa2 ¢ 194 ₓc2 Â 226 ₓe2 â
35 ₓ23 # 67 ₓ43 C 99 ₓ63 c 131 ₓ83| 192 ƒ 163 ₓa3 £ 195 ₓc3 Ã 227 ₓe3 ã
36 ₓ24 $ 68 ₓ44 D 100 ₓ64 d 132 ₓ84|201e „ 164 ₓa4 ¤ 196 ₓc4 Ä 228 ₓe4 ä
37 ₓ25 % 69 ₓ45 E 101 ₓ65 e 133 ₓ85|2026 … 165 ₓa5 ¥ 197 ₓc5 Å 229 ₓe5 å
38 ₓ26 & 70 ₓ46 F 102 ₓ66 f 134 ₓ86|2020 † 166 ₓa6 ¦ 198 ₓc6 Æ 230 ₓe6 æ
39 ₓ27 ' 71 ₓ47 G 103 ₓ67 g 135 ₓ87|2021 ‡ 167 ₓa7 § 199 ₓc7 Ç 231 ₓe7 ç
40 ₓ28 ( 72 ₓ48 H 104 ₓ68 h 136 ₓ88| 2c6 ˆ 168 ₓa8 ¨ 200 ₓc8 È 232 ₓe8 è
41 ₓ29 ) 73 ₓ49 I 105 ₓ69 i 137 ₓ89|2030 ‰ 169 ₓa9 © 201 ₓc9 É 233 ₓe9 é
42 ₓ2a * 74 ₓ4a J 106 ₓ6a j 138 ₓ8a| 160 Š 170 ₓaa ª 202 ₓca Ê 234 ₓea ê
43 ₓ2b + 75 ₓ4b K 107 ₓ6b k 139 ₓ8b|2039 ‹ 171 ₓab « 203 ₓcb Ë 235 ₓeb ë
44 ₓ2c , 76 ₓ4c L 108 ₓ6c l 140 ₓ8c| 152 Œ 172 ₓac ¬ 204 ₓcc Ì 236 ₓec ì
45 ₓ2d - 77 ₓ4d M 109 ₓ6d m 141 ₓ8d| 8d 173 ₓad (-) 205 ₓcd Í 237 ₓed í
46 ₓ2e . 78 ₓ4e N 110 ₓ6e n 142 ₓ8e| 17d Ž 174 ₓae ® 206 ₓce Î 238 ₓee î
47 ₓ2f / 79 ₓ4f O 111 ₓ6f o 143 ₓ8f| 8f  175 ₓaf ¯ 207 ₓcf Ï 239 ₓef ï
48 ₓ30 0 80 ₓ50 P 112 ₓ70 p 144 ₓ90| 90  176 ₓb0 ° 208 ₓd0 Ð 240 ₓf0 ð
49 ₓ31 1 81 ₓ51 Q 113 ₓ71 q 145 ₓ91|2018 ‘ 177 ₓb1 ± 209 ₓd1 Ñ 241 ₓf1 ñ
50 ₓ32 2 82 ₓ52 R 114 ₓ72 r 146 ₓ92|2019 ’ 178 ₓb2 ² 210 ₓd2 Ò 242 ₓf2 ò
51 ₓ33 3 83 ₓ53 S 115 ₓ73 s 147 ₓ93|201c “ 179 ₓb3 ³ 211 ₓd3 Ó 243 ₓf3 ó
52 ₓ34 4 84 ₓ54 T 116 ₓ74 t 148 ₓ94|201d ” 180 ₓb4 ´ 212 ₓd4 Ô 244 ₓf4 ô
53 ₓ35 5 85 ₓ55 U 117 ₓ75 u 149 ₓ95|2022 • 181 ₓb5 µ 213 ₓd5 Õ 245 ₓf5 õ
54 ₓ36 6 86 ₓ56 V 118 ₓ76 v 150 ₓ96|2013 – 182 ₓb6 ¶ 214 ₓd6 Ö 246 ₓf6 ö
55 ₓ37 7 87 ₓ57 W 119 ₓ77 w 151 ₓ97|2014 — 183 ₓb7 · 215 ₓd7 × 247 ₓf7 ÷
56 ₓ38 8 88 ₓ58 X 120 ₓ78 x 152 ₓ98| 2dc ˜ 184 ₓb8 ¸ 216 ₓd8 Ø 248 ₓf8 ø
57 ₓ39 9 89 ₓ59 Y 121 ₓ79 y 153 ₓ99|2122 ™ 185 ₓb9 ¹ 217 ₓd9 Ù 249 ₓf9 ù
58 ₓ3a : 90 ₓ5a Z 122 ₓ7a z 154 ₓ9a| 161 š 186 ₓba º 218 ₓda Ú 250 ₓfa ú
59 ₓ3b ; 91 ₓ5b [ 123 ₓ7b { 155 ₓ9b|203a › 187 ₓbb » 219 ₓdb Û 251 ₓfb û
60 ₓ3c < 92 ₓ5c \ 124 ₓ7c | 156 ₓ9c| 153 œ 188 ₓbc ¼ 220 ₓdc Ü 252 ₓfc ü
61 ₓ3d = 93 ₓ5d ] 125 ₓ7d } 157 ₓ9d| 9d  189 ₓbd ½ 221 ₓdd Ý 253 ₓfd ý
62 ₓ3e > 94 ₓ5e ^ 126 ₓ7e ~ 158 ₓ9e| 17e ž 190 ₓbe ¾ 222 ₓde Þ 254 ₓfe þ
63 ₓ3f ? 95 ₓ5f _ 159 ₓ9f| 178 Ÿ 191 ₓbf ¿ 223 ₓdf ß 255 ₓff ÿ
−−−−−−−−−−−−−− Expenses −−−−−−−−−−−−−−−− │ FX
Salary Adver. Charge- │ │ Gain Net
& Ben. & Prom. Offs │ Total │ ( Loss ) Earnings
−−−−−−−−−−−−−− Расходы −−−−−−−−−−−−−−−−− │ Прибыль/
Зарплата, Реклама, Списания │ │ убыток от Чистый
надбавки продвиж. со счета │ Всего │ вал.переоц. доход
−−−−−−−−−−−−−− 开支 −−−−−−−−−−−−−−−−−−−− │
工资 广告 │ │ 外汇折算 净
和福利 和促销 核销 │ 总额 │ 盈/亏 收益

[Michael Baeuerle]

Post by unknown
Micha, In practice, in the -real- world,
flowed text and a proportional font are the default.

If you want it, you can have it. I try to create an example:

This paragraph contains flowed text 123456789 123456789 123456789 123456789 123456789 123456789 123456789 123456789 123456789 123456789 123456789 123456789 123456789 123456789 123456789
123456789. The newsreader should rewrap it to the window width and may use a proportional font.

This paragraph contains flowed text 123456789 123456789 123456789
123456789 123456789 123456789 123456789 123456789 123456789 123456789
123456789 123456789 123456789 123456789 123456789 123456789. The
newsreader should rewrap it to the window width and may use a
proportional font.

Both variants should display identically. The second one use RFC3676
compliant line wrap and should look good even without any decoding.

Post by unknown
When you post HTML, "a<b" becomes "a&lt;b".
Mainstream email/Usenet clients ( e.g. Thunderbird )
handle the encoding/decoding.

But nearly all USENET users don't post HTML. Therefore you must expect
other people citing it as text/plain before you can encode it.

Post by unknown
[...]
Note, the following (monospace) text contrains
a plain text table that should -not- be wrapped.

And that is what I got on my screen:
Loading Image...
I have to use the horizontal scrollbar in this case.

Note that even the text I have cited from your article above can be
rewrapped to window width and printed with proportional font if
desired.
Nevertheless such things can be mixed with fixed text in one article.
This is a long line in fixed format (that should not be wrapped
and displayed with a monospaced font):
aaa bbb ccc ddd eee fff ggg hhh iii jjj kkk lll mmm nnn ooo ppp qqq rrr sss ttt uuu vvv www xxx yyy zzz aaa bbb ccc ddd eee fff ggg hhh iii jjj kkk lll mmm nnn ooo ppp qqq rrr sss ttt uuu vvv www xxx yyy zzz


Micha

[Michael Baeuerle]

Post by Michael Baeuerle

Micha, In practice, in the -real- world, flowed text and a
proportional font are the default.

This paragraph contains flowed text 123456789 123456789 123456789
123456789 123456789 123456789 123456789 123456789 123456789 123456789
123456789 123456789 123456789 123456789 123456789 123456789. The
newsreader should rewrap it to the window width and may use a
proportional font.
This paragraph contains flowed text 123456789 123456789 123456789
123456789 123456789 123456789 123456789 123456789 123456789 123456789
123456789 123456789 123456789 123456789 123456789 123456789. The
newsreader should rewrap it to the window width and may use a
proportional font.
Both variants should display identically. The second one use RFC3676
compliant line wrap and should look good even without any decoding.

When you post HTML, "a<b" becomes "a&lt;b". Mainstream email/Usenet
clients ( e.g. Thunderbird ) handle the encoding/decoding.

But nearly all USENET users don't post HTML. Therefore you must expect
other people citing it as text/plain before you can encode it.

[...]
Note, the following (monospace) text contrains a plain text table that
should -not- be wrapped.

http://micha.freeshell.org/tmp/fixed_with_table.png
I have to use the horizontal scrollbar in this case.
Note that even the text I have cited from your article above can be
rewrapped to window width and printed with proportional font if desired.
Nevertheless such things can be mixed with fixed text in one article.
This is a long line in fixed format (that should not be wrapped and
aaa bbb ccc ddd eee fff ggg hhh iii jjj kkk lll mmm nnn ooo ppp qqq rrr sss ttt uuu vvv www xxx yyy zzz aaa bbb ccc ddd eee fff ggg hhh iii jjj kkk lll mmm nnn ooo ppp qqq rrr sss ttt uuu vvv www xxx yyy zzz

[Whiskers]

Post by Michael Baeuerle

Post by unknown
Micha, In practice, in the -real- world,
flowed text and a proportional font are the default.

This paragraph contains flowed text 123456789 123456789 123456789 123456789 123456789 123456789 123456789 123456789 123456789 123456789 123456789 123456789 123456789 123456789 123456789
123456789.

Sadly, it is 'format=flowed' with the width (for use by software that
doesn't use 'format=flowed') set to 189 characters. A width in the low
70s would be conventional, and more considerate and legible.

Post by Michael Baeuerle
The newsreader should rewrap it to the window width and may use a proportional font.

Some reading software may automatically wrap to the screen width or some
other setting, some may do so if the user sends the appropriate command;
using a particular 'font' is probably a matter of the design of the
software and/or user settings or commands. No "should"!

Post by Michael Baeuerle
This paragraph contains flowed text 123456789 123456789 123456789
123456789 123456789 123456789 123456789 123456789 123456789 123456789
123456789 123456789 123456789 123456789 123456789 123456789. The
newsreader should rewrap it to the window width and may use a
proportional font.
Both variants should display identically.

Only if the user's software and settings make that happen by
coincidence.

Post by Michael Baeuerle
The second one use RFC3676
compliant line wrap and should look good even without any decoding.

Certainly the 'width' set there for non-format=flowed software is a
considerate 72 or thereabouts.

Post by Michael Baeuerle

Post by unknown
When you post HTML, "a<b" becomes "a&lt;b".
Mainstream email/Usenet clients ( e.g. Thunderbird )
handle the encoding/decoding.

But nearly all USENET users don't post HTML. Therefore you must expect
other people citing it as text/plain before you can encode it.

Post by unknown
[...]
Note, the following (monospace) text contrains
a plain text table that should -not- be wrapped.

http://micha.freeshell.org/tmp/fixed_with_table.png
I have to use the horizontal scrollbar in this case.
Note that even the text I have cited from your article above can be
rewrapped to window width and printed with proportional font if
desired.
Nevertheless such things can be mixed with fixed text in one article.
This is a long line in fixed format (that should not be wrapped
aaa bbb ccc ddd eee fff ggg hhh iii jjj kkk lll mmm nnn ooo ppp qqq rrr sss ttt uuu vvv www xxx yyy zzz aaa bbb ccc ddd eee fff ggg hhh iii jjj kkk lll mmm nnn ooo ppp qqq rrr sss ttt uuu vvv www xxx yyy zzz
Micha

That line doesn't wrap in my reader unless I want it to. There are no
'proportional fonts' in any usenet articles I read - all text is in
'Liberation Mono 12-point'. Nothing the person sending the article does
can have any effect on that.

Note that format=flowed was intended to help users of small-screen
devices such as the PDAs popular in the 1990s, which typically had a
display width of 40 characters or even less. It is doubtless still of
use to people using 'feature phones' or 'smart phones' for reading
email (although user software is now quite capable of handling text
wrapping and quoting with or without format=flowed being set by the
sender).

There are technically better ways of handling usenet articles containing
text which the sender doesn't want the reader's software to 'format' or
'parse' or 'fold' or otherwise mess about with. Slrn and a few other
newsreaders, for example, recognise the 'verbatim' marks (#v+ on the
line before and #v- on the line after) to identify lines which are to be
displayed exactly as sent - such as programing code or wide 'tables' or
mathematical formulas.

[Michael Baeuerle]

Post by Whiskers

Post by Michael Baeuerle

Post by unknown
Micha, In practice, in the -real- world,
flowed text and a proportional font are the default.

This paragraph contains flowed text 123456789 123456789 123456789 123456789 123456789 123456789 123456789 123456789 123456789 123456789 123456789 123456789 123456789 123456789 123456789
123456789.

Sadly, it is 'format=flowed' with the width (for use by software that
doesn't use 'format=flowed') set to 189 characters. A width in the low
70s would be conventional, and more considerate and legible.

I have done this intentionally (to make it obvious whether the
newsreader can decode RFC3676 encoded flowed text or not). Using
line length greater than 72 characters is explicitly not recommended
by RFC3676. Therefore this first example is the *wrong* way to use
it and for demonstration only.

Post by Whiskers

Post by Michael Baeuerle
The newsreader should rewrap it to the window width and may use a proportional font.

Some reading software may automatically wrap to the screen width or some
other setting, some may do so if the user sends the appropriate command;
using a particular 'font' is probably a matter of the design of the
software and/or user settings or commands. No "should"!

If the content type contain the parameter "format=flowed" the
newsreader really *should* rewrap to his needs (but only the
paragraphs that contain "flowed lines" in the sense of RFC3676).
This enables the sender to indicate "rewrapping is allowed here
but but not there".

If the newsreader don't support flowed text it should ignore the
"format" parameter and never rewrap. An option to do this manually
is fine (e.g. to read Google postings), but it should not be the
default.
I know that some newsreaders don't follow this rule, but it didn't
care in this case (because if the newsreader always rewrap on its
own, you have no chance at all and such things as the table always
become crippled). Note that it is broken the same way in this case
if you label it "format=fixed" or omit the label completely.
Therefore the newsreader never should rewrap on his own but only
on user request or where "format=flowed" allows it.

Post by Whiskers

Post by Michael Baeuerle
This paragraph contains flowed text 123456789 123456789 123456789
123456789 123456789 123456789 123456789 123456789 123456789 123456789
123456789 123456789 123456789 123456789 123456789 123456789. The
newsreader should rewrap it to the window width and may use a
proportional font.
Both variants should display identically.

Only if the user's software and settings make that happen by
coincidence.

If you have a newsreader that can decode RFC3676 both examples
should look the same. The newsreader should rewrap both to the
width matching its needs.

Your slrn seems to have no support for this and show it "as is" in
fixed format. If one follow the recommendation in RFC3676, like
I have done in the second example, it nevertheless is readable and
looks like a "normal" posting in fixed format for you.

Post by Whiskers

Post by Michael Baeuerle
The second one use RFC3676
compliant line wrap and should look good even without any decoding.

Certainly the 'width' set there for non-format=flowed software is a
considerate 72 or thereabouts.

This is the intention of RFC3676. Format it readable "as is" and add
invisible marks that indicate where rewrapping is allowed for clients
that support flowed text (or want to use proportional fonts).
^^^^^^^^^^^

Post by Whiskers

Post by Michael Baeuerle
[...]
Nevertheless such things can be mixed with fixed text in one article.
This is a long line in fixed format (that should not be wrapped
aaa bbb ccc ddd eee fff ggg hhh iii jjj kkk lll mmm nnn ooo ppp qqq rrr sss ttt uuu vvv www xxx yyy zzz aaa bbb ccc ddd eee fff ggg hhh iii jjj kkk lll mmm nnn ooo ppp qqq rrr sss ttt uuu vvv www xxx yyy zzz

That line doesn't wrap in my reader unless I want it to.

And that is exactly what I have intended (remember the table) and
what RFC3676 allows you side by side with flowed text paragraphs
(that your slrn should show in the preformatted native width if
it don't support flowed text).

Post by Whiskers
There are no
'proportional fonts' in any usenet articles I read - all text is in
'Liberation Mono 12-point'. Nothing the person sending the article does
can have any effect on that.

Yes. And if slrn don't support flowed text this is the correct
behaviour. Even if a newsreader support flowed text, nobody specify
the font to use. The look and feel is still completely controlled by
the client side.

flnews rewrap flowed text, but always use a monospaced font too.
But if people really feel need for proportional fonts (as Jeff has
mentioned) they are free to use it for the flowed paragraphs if they
like - without crippling things like the table.

Post by Whiskers
Note that format=flowed was intended to help users of small-screen
devices such as the PDAs popular in the 1990s, which typically had a
display width of 40 characters or even less. It is doubtless still of
use to people using 'feature phones' or 'smart phones' for reading
email (although user software is now quite capable of handling text
wrapping and quoting with or without format=flowed being set by the
sender).

If you want to hear my opinion:
I don't need flowed text for USENET, therefore I have not implemented
support into flnews to compose it (the example was hand crafted).

But RFC3676 is a proposed internet standard and some people may find
it useful (Google is an example, they seem to want exactly what is
specified there, but don't label it correctly). Therefore I have
implemented decoding support for it into flnews.

Post by Whiskers
There are technically better ways of handling usenet articles containing
text which the sender doesn't want the reader's software to 'format' or
'parse' or 'fold' or otherwise mess about with. Slrn and a few other
newsreaders, for example, recognise the 'verbatim' marks (#v+ on the
line before and #v- on the line after) to identify lines which are to be
displayed exactly as sent - such as programing code or wide 'tables' or
mathematical formulas.

I think this is not technically better - because the marks are visible
if the newsreader have no support for them and the header don't
indicate whether special processing is required.
And none of them are defined in a standard like RFC3676.

What I want to show is that there is no need for HTML. An official
plain text solution for the fixed/flowed problem exists.
And if there are more than one option to avoid HTML - even better.


Micha

[Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz]

Post by Michael Baeuerle
I have done this intentionally (to make it obvious whether the
newsreader can decode RFC3676 encoded flowed text or not). Using
line length greater than 72 characters is explicitly not
recommended by RFC3676.

More than not recommended; 78 or fewer characters is a SHOULD.

[Michael Baeuerle]

Post by Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz

Post by Michael Baeuerle
I have done this intentionally (to make it obvious whether the
newsreader can decode RFC3676 encoded flowed text or not). Using
line length greater than 72 characters is explicitly not
recommended by RFC3676.

More than not recommended; 78 or fewer characters is a SHOULD.

You are right, 78 chars/line is the line length that SHOULD not be
excedded.

The 72 chars/line is the recommended maximum length for composition
wrapping of paragraphs with flowed text:
|
| [...]
| any paragraph longer than 78 characters in total length could be
| wrapped using lines of 72 or fewer characters.

flnews always compose replies in fixed format. Therefore the same rule
is used for decoding and paragraphs with flowed text are rewrapped to
72 chars/line. Using this method a reply will never get wider than a
reply from a fixed-only agent to an article following recommendations
cited above (even if the real article violates them).
The result is good error tolerance against things like my first example.


Micha

[Adam H. Kerman]

Post by Michael Baeuerle

Post by Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz

Post by Michael Baeuerle
I have done this intentionally (to make it obvious whether the
newsreader can decode RFC3676 encoded flowed text or not). Using
line length greater than 72 characters is explicitly not
recommended by RFC3676.

More than not recommended; 78 or fewer characters is a SHOULD.

You are right, 78 chars/line is the line length that SHOULD not be
excedded.

That's also related to flowed text, due to the mandatory trailing space
in internal paragraph lines, and the issue with what the terminal does
with the 80th character and display of characters beyond 80.

Post by Michael Baeuerle
The 72 chars/line is the recommended maximum length for composition
| [...]
| any paragraph longer than 78 characters in total length could be
| wrapped using lines of 72 or fewer characters.

I guess that's a random assumption about the number of followups to be
written with clients clueless about reformatting quoted text.

Post by Michael Baeuerle
flnews always compose replies in fixed format. Therefore the same rule
is used for decoding and paragraphs with flowed text are rewrapped to
72 chars/line. Using this method a reply will never get wider than a
reply from a fixed-only agent to an article following recommendations
cited above (even if the real article violates them).
The result is good error tolerance against things like my first example.

What does it do with long URLs?

[Michael Baeuerle]

Post by Adam H. Kerman

Post by Michael Baeuerle

Post by Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz

Post by Michael Baeuerle
I have done this intentionally (to make it obvious whether the
newsreader can decode RFC3676 encoded flowed text or not). Using
line length greater than 72 characters is explicitly not
recommended by RFC3676.

More than not recommended; 78 or fewer characters is a SHOULD.

You are right, 78 chars/line is the line length that SHOULD not be
excedded.

That's also related to flowed text, due to the mandatory trailing space
in internal paragraph lines, and the issue with what the terminal does
with the 80th character and display of characters beyond 80.

The value 78 is taken from [1], the general standard for all internet
messages (E-Mail and News).

For flowed text it is specified in [2] as follows:
|
| When generating Format=Flowed text, lines SHOULD be 78 characters
| or shorter, including any trailing white space and also including
^^^^^^^^^
| any space added as part of stuffing (see Section 4.4).

This means that the additional spaces are counted as part of the line
content (the right choice with user agents in mind that don't have
support for RFC3676).

Post by Adam H. Kerman

Post by Michael Baeuerle
The 72 chars/line is the recommended maximum length for composition
| [...]
| any paragraph longer than 78 characters in total length could be
| wrapped using lines of 72 or fewer characters.

I guess that's a random assumption about the number of followups to be
written with clients clueless about reformatting quoted text.

Yes. In [2] they give 66 as "most readable", but I prefer 72. If you
really need a citation depth of 10 or something, it's reasonable that
you have to do some right-scrolling.

Post by Adam H. Kerman

Post by Michael Baeuerle
flnews always compose replies in fixed format. Therefore the same rule
is used for decoding and paragraphs with flowed text are rewrapped to
72 chars/line. Using this method a reply will never get wider than a
reply from a fixed-only agent to an article following recommendations
cited above (even if the real article violates them).
The result is good error tolerance against things like my first example.

What does it do with long URLs?

The current version have no special handling for them yet. So if they
are not part of a flowed line, they are not wrapped (regardless of
the length). You can simply cut&paste them into the browser.


Micha

[1] https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5322#section-2.1.1
[2] https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc3676#section-4.2

[tlvp]

Post by Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz

Post by Michael Baeuerle
line length greater than 72 characters is explicitly not
recommended by RFC3676.

More than not recommended; 78 or fewer characters is a SHOULD.

No conflict. "78 or fewer" is a "should"; "78 or fewer" AND "greater than
72" is a "not recommended". But 72 and under appears to be safe :-) ,
while greater than 78 appears to be both "not recommended" and verboten.

Agreed :-) ? Cheers, -- tlvp

[Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz]

Post by tlvp
No conflict. "78 or fewer" is a "should"; "78 or fewer" AND "greater
than 72" is a "not recommended". But 72 and under appears to be safe
:-) , while greater than 78 appears to be both "not recommended" and
verboten.
Agreed :-) ?

Mostly. SHOULD NOT is a funny animal, meaning almost[1] verbotten;
it's not as strong as MUST NOT.

[1] The RFC 2119 condition "but the full implications should be
understood and the case carefully weighed before implementing
any behavior described with this label." rarely holds.

[tlvp]

Post by Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz

Post by tlvp
No conflict. "78 or fewer" is a "should"; "78 or fewer" AND "greater
than 72" is a "not recommended". But 72 and under appears to be safe
:-) , while greater than 78 appears to be both "not recommended" and
verboten.
Agreed :-) ?

Mostly. SHOULD NOT is a funny animal, meaning almost[1] verbotten;
it's not as strong as MUST NOT.
[1] The RFC 2119 condition "but the full implications should be
understood and the case carefully weighed before implementing
any behavior described with this label." rarely holds.

I guess only lawyers, mathematicians, and RFC writers fully grasp why terms
(like "should not", "must not") absolutely need to be clearly *defined*
before they're bandied about willy-nilly, as I did :-) . Cheers, & thanks,
-- tlvp

[mike hunt]

Post by unknown
Xnews is a "good choice" for those who
(can't|won't) (read|write) (Unicode|HTML).

HTML in text groups? Fuck that.

[chrisv]

*plonk*

[Mr On!on]

Post by chrisv
*plonk*

Hooray!

[chrisv]

Post by Mr On!on

Post by chrisv
*plonk*

Hooray!

Yeah, the Relf sociopath is on the short list of trolls who are so
worthless that I will plonk people just for responding to him.

[mike hunt]

Post by chrisv

Post by Mr On!on

Post by chrisv
*plonk*

Hooray!

Yeah, the Relf sociopath is on the short list of trolls who are so
worthless that I will plonk people just for responding to him.

Keep your whining to yourself, chrissy.

[Sir Gregory Hall, Esq.]

Post by mike hunt

Post by chrisv

Post by Mr On!on

Post by chrisv
*plonk*

Hooray!

Yeah, the Relf sociopath is on the short list of trolls who are so
worthless that I will plonk people just for responding to him.

Keep your whining to yourself, chrissy.

Yup, he's such a freaking lightweight!

[mike hunt]

Post by Mr On!on

Post by chrisv
*plonk*

Hooray!

Hair Onion says what?

[mike hunt]

Post by chrisv
*plonk*

..................../´¯/)
....................,/¯../
.................../..../
............./´¯/'...'/´¯¯`·¸
........../'/.../..../......./¨¯\
........('(...´...´.... ¯~/'...')
.........\.................'...../
..........''...\.......... _.·´
............\..............(
..............\.............\...

[unknown]

<PRE Style='White-Space: PRE !important; Font-Size: 18px !important;Font-Family: monospace !important;'> 
mike hunt ( a.k.a. Mike Hunt ), different fonts
have different widths for different characters;
so your "ASCII Art" needs a monospaced font.

Likewise "Plain Text Tables" need a monospaced font.
The way to do that, when posting on Usenet or emailing,
is to use the &lt;PRE> tag, HTML.

The morons who (can't|won't) (read|write) (Unicode|HTML)
are illiterate, I think.

/ \
|\_/| ___________ ____
|---| ______/ \__// \__/____\
| | _/ \_/ : //____\\
| | /| : : .. / \
_ |=-=| _ | | :: :: \ /
_ / \| |/ \ | | :| || \ \______/
/ \| | | ||\ | | || || |\ / |
| | | | | \> \| || || | / | \
| | | | | \ | || || | / /_\ \
| - - - - |) ) | ___ || ___ || | / / \
| / \_-_/ \_-_/ | ____ |/__/ \
\ / _\_--_/ \ /
\ / /____ /
\ / / \ /
\ / \______\_________/
| |
.
. !\ _
l\/ ( /(_
_ \`--" _/ .
\~") (_,/)
_)/. ,\,/
_____,-"~ \ / "~"-._____
,-~" "~-. . " . ,-~" "~-.
,^ ^. `. .' ,^ ^.
/ \ ^ / \
Y___________________Y Y___________________Y
| |^~"|^ _ ^|"~^| | | |"~"|^ _ ^|"~"| |
| ! l (_) ! ! l | ! l (_) ! ! |
l \ `\.___,/' / ! l \ `\.___,/' / !
\ ^. ,^ /! !\ ^. ,^ /
^. ~-------~ ,^\`v-v'/^. ~-------~ ,^
_)~-._______,-~ }---{ ~-._______,-~(_
.--"~ ,-^7' / \ `Y^-, ~"--.
/ (_,/ ,/' `\. \._) ___ \
\_____.,--"~~~"--..,__ ___,..--&lt;"~ ~"-.,___/
/ ( __,--~ _.._""~~~~"" ,-" "-.`\ /~.-"
`._"--~_,.--"~ \ / \ `---' /
"~"" \ / "-.__,/
`L ]'
l !
j___L -Row
(_____)
| |

[Jeßus]

Post by chrisv
*plonk*

I'm sure he's just devastated by your plonking.

[unknown]

Post by Jeßus
I'm sure he's just devastated by your plonking.

I like it, free publicity.

Also, I like how he keeps track of
everyone who replies to me.

[mike hunt]

Post by Jeßus

Post by chrisv
*plonk*

I'm sure he's just devastated by your plonking.

Sure I am, but not as butthurt as chrissy
is about Jeff.

[Dr. Jai Maharaj]

Post by unknown
<PRE Style='White-Space: PRE !important; Font-Size: 18px
!important;Font-Family: monospace !important;'> 
// > I'm on Xnews right now, I think I'll stick with it for my Windows
// > partition and use slrn on my Fedora partition instead. Thanks to
// > everyone for all the help.
//
// Good choice :))
Xnews is a "good choice" for those who
(can't|won't) (read|write) (Unicode|HTML).
HTML is good because, with the &lt;PRE> tag,
you get a monospaced font ( for indenting ),
instead of the default (proportional) font.
As an added benefit, noobs can't read it.

Xnews appears to be based on News Xpress.

Jai Maharaj, Jyotishi
Om Shanti

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.fan.jai-maharaj

[chrisv]

*plonk*

[Richard Starkey]

You need to worry about a visit from the Feds. Just a heads up your ass asshole.

Have you and Lloyd fucked each other yet?

Neal Warren is a scumbag, and anyone who takes anything he says seriously has probably had some brain trauma. Nellie is a FUCKING PERVERT, LIAR, RACIST, and general SHITHOLE.

Why don't you tell everyone how many providers have BOOTED your sorry little ass off for policy violations...

You fucking cocksucking little squirt. Someone is going to pay you a visit. Heads up asshole.

Criminal, pedo, scumbag, usenet freak. Shits in his bunk.

Making sure everyone knows you have a little limp dick and a puke yellow boat that smells like shit, not to mention your lack of education.

***@gmail.com

Neal D. Warren/Wilbur Hubbard/Gregory Hall
PO Box 1015
Tavernier, FL 33070
305 304-7546

[Keith]

Post by Andres Garza
I need help setting up slrn on Windows.
I'm getting this message whenever I set "gmail.com" or "imap.gmail.com" as my hostname.
Unable to find a valid hostname for constructing your e-mail address.
You probably want to specify a hostname in your slrn.rc file.
Please see the "slrn reference manual" for full details.
What should I set it as?

You need to set up a batch sile like this:
slrn.bat
echo off
del jnewsrc-forte.txt-lock
CLS
rem #THIS IS NEEDED
rem #set NNTPSERVER=my.newsserver.isp

rem #Edited 6-3-09 Keith Wyatt

set NNTPSERVER=news.eternal-september.org

set USER=USERNAME_GOES_HERE

set NNTPSERVER

set USER

rem #chcp 65001
rem change directory to the directory to where slrn.exe is
cd C:\Users\USERNAME_HERE\Documents\slrn

set SLRNHOME=C:\Users\USERNAME_HERE\Documents\slrn

set SLRN_SLANG_DIR=C:\Users\USERNAME_HERE\Documents\slrn\slang

@echo "Press a Key or control-c to cancel"

@pause

slrn.exe %1

___________________________________________________________________


Windows slrn.rc file
__________________________________________________________________
% -*- slang -*-



%% This is a sample startup file for the slrn newsreader and meant as a

%% template for your personal startup file; it is not a full reference

%% of slrn's config options -- please see the reference manual for this.



%% The percent character is used for comments.



%

%% 1. Tell slrn about your identity (name, email address and such)

%



% The "From:" header will be generated from the following three variables.

% With the example settings, it would read "John Doe <***@doe.com>"

set username "USERNAME_HERE"

set hostname "EMAIL_DOMAIN_NAME_HERE"

set realname "NAME_U_WANT_2_USE"



% Set this if you want replies to your articles to go to a address different

% from the one in "From:".

set replyto "NAME <***@here>"



% What to put into the "Organization:" header line.

%set organization "Doe inc."



% The name of your signature file. If "", no signature is added.

set signature "signature.txt"



set query_read_group_cutoff 1000

set abort_unmodified_edits 1

set check_new_groups 0

set confirm_actions 2

set overview_date_format "%d"

%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%Header Display Format%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
header_display_format 1 "%F%B%-5S [%10r]:%t%49s %-19g[%17d]"
header_display_format 0 "%F%B%-5S%G%-5l:[%12r]%t%s"
header_display_format 2 "%F%B%G%-5l:[%12r]%t%s"
header_display_format 3 "%F%B%-5l:%t%s"
header_display_format 4 "%F%B%-5S%-5l:%t%50s %r"
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%Header Display Format%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
%
%% 2. Server specific settings
%
% Tell slrn which newsrc file it should use for which server.
% Note: This does *not* set the default server; you need to set the
% NNTPSERVER environment variable for this.

server "news.eternal-september.org" "jnewsrc-forte.txt"

% If a server requires authentication, add a nnrpaccess line for it.
% If you leave username and/or password empty, slrn will prompt for it.

nnrpaccess "news.eternal-september.org" "NEWS_SERVER_USER_NAME_HERE" "PASSWORD_4_NEWS_SERVER_HERE"

% Some servers require authentication, but don't ask for it.
% To offer your authentication data "voluntarily", set this variable to 1

%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
% SET THIS TO 1 for the eternal-september news server or it won't work properly!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
set force_authentication 1
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%################################################################

[Anonymous]

When Neal says "fuck you" he really means it.. literally he wants to fuck you.

You need to worry about a visit from the Feds. Just a heads up your ass asshole.

Have you and Lloyd fucked each other yet?

Neal Warren is a scumbag, and anyone who takes anything he says seriously has probably had some brain trauma. Nellie is a FUCKING PERVERT, LIAR, RACIST, and general SHITHOLE.

Why don't you tell everyone how many providers have BOOTED your sorry little ass off for policy violations...

You fucking cocksucking little squirt. Someone is going to pay you a visit. Heads up asshole.

Criminal, pedo, scumbag, usenet freak. Shits in his bunk.

Making sure everyone knows you have a little limp dick and a puke yellow boat that smells like shit, not to mention your lack of education.

***@gmail.com

Neal D. Warren/Wilbur Hubbard/Gregory Hall
PO Box 1015
Tavernier, FL 33070
305 304-7546

[Dave U. Random]

When Neal says "fuck you" he really means it.. literally he wants to fuck you.

You need to worry about a visit from the Feds. Just a heads up your ass asshole.

Have you and Lloyd fucked each other yet?

Neal Warren is a scumbag, and anyone who takes anything he says seriously has probably had some brain trauma. Nellie is a FUCKING PERVERT, LIAR, RACIST, and general SHITHOLE.

Why don't you tell everyone how many providers have BOOTED your sorry little ass off for policy violations...

You fucking cocksucking little squirt. Someone is going to pay you a visit. Heads up asshole.

Criminal, pedo, scumbag, usenet freak. Shits in his bunk.

Making sure everyone knows you have a little limp dick and a puke yellow boat that smells like shit, not to mention your lack of education.

***@gmail.com

Neal D. Warren/Wilbur Hubbard/Gregory Hall
PO Box 1015
Tavernier, FL 33070
305 304-7546

[Anonymous Remailer (austria)]

When Neal says "fuck you" he really means it.. literally he wants to fuck you.

You need to worry about a visit from the Feds. Just a heads up your ass asshole.

Have you and Lloyd fucked each other yet?

Neal Warren is a scumbag, and anyone who takes anything he says seriously has probably had some brain trauma. Nellie is a FUCKING PERVERT, LIAR, RACIST, and general SHITHOLE.

Why don't you tell everyone how many providers have BOOTED your sorry little ass off for policy violations...

You fucking cocksucking little squirt. Someone is going to pay you a visit. Heads up asshole.

Criminal, pedo, scumbag, usenet freak. Shits in his bunk.

Making sure everyone knows you have a little limp dick and a puke yellow boat that smells like shit, not to mention your lack of education.

***@gmail.com

Neal D. Warren/Wilbur Hubbard/Gregory Hall
PO Box 1015
Tavernier, FL 33070
305 304-7546

[Odiferous Flatulence]

When Neal says "fuck you" he really means it.. literally he wants to fuck you.

You need to worry about a visit from the Feds. Just a heads up your ass asshole.

Have you and Lloyd fucked each other yet?

Neal Warren is a scumbag, and anyone who takes anything he says seriously has probably had some brain trauma. Nellie is a FUCKING PERVERT, LIAR, RACIST, and general SHITHOLE.

Why don't you tell everyone how many providers have BOOTED your sorry little ass off for policy violations...

You fucking cocksucking little squirt. Someone is going to pay you a visit. Heads up asshole.

Criminal, pedo, scumbag, usenet freak. Shits in his bunk.

Making sure everyone knows you have a little limp dick and a puke yellow boat that smells like shit, not to mention your lack of education.

***@gmail.com

Neal D. Warren/Wilbur Hubbard/Gregory Hall
PO Box 1015
Tavernier, FL 33070
305 304-7546